Drawer & Cabinet Guys:! Opinions Needed!

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On 2/3/16 6:40 PM, Swingman wrote:

Yes, I can see the spacers and that is what came to my mind at first viewing when I was in their shop yesterday. I think I'll go back and double check that all drawers are the same width. If so, I may be leaning towards building out the interiors with that type of spacer. The cabinets are very wide and open so there's plenty of room for me to get in there with a drill/driver.
I think I could show up with stock the thickness of the widest gap and use either a planer or jointer to take the rest down to thickness. That would be fairy quick.
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On 2/3/2016 7:43 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

The slides aren't that tall, so should be able to resaw to thickness on the table saw for each location ... what I usually do.
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On 2/3/16 8:43 PM, Swingman wrote:

Since I just picked up a job-site TS, that sounds like the plan.
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On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 at 6:41:31 PM UTC-6, Swingman wrote:

LOL... no wonder we get along so well. A man truly after my own heart.
I don't like it when I get beat on a job, but I really don't like it if I get beat because someone used lesser quality materials, lesser build quality, and inferior design. Still... it happens, certainly part of the business.
But one should be aware of consequences if they call me to "fix" the work of a contractor that got the job. Pricing on repairs of that type isn't pretty, but depending on the client's attitude, it can be downright ugly.
Robert
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On 2/3/16 11:44 PM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

LOL!! I have one client who would always ask me to give him an estimate for home improvement projects and then end up hiring someone cheaper, or he'd never ask me for a quote-- just hire some cheap guy. He would inevitably end up calling me to come fix it or do it right and end up paying 30-40% more than he would've paid me to do it in the first place. One day, in the presence of his wife, I said, "Man, why don't you just call me in the first place for this stuff?" His wife got this huge grin on her face and said, "That's what I've been telling him!"
Now he calls me first. :-)
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And exactly why I suggested inserts and shop built. I'm not going to suffer repairing someone else's screw up.
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On 2/4/2016 12:20 AM, Leon wrote:

Good, $end them to me ... ;)
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On 2/4/2016 8:29 AM, Swingman wrote:

The inserts sell way to easily for me. AAMOF that is how I added drawers under our current island and a neighbors island.
A few years back I returned 3 times to install inserts for a particular customer wanting to "gradually" update her 40 year old kitchen so that she did not have to crawl into her bottom cabinets. They/we were all willing to give up and additional 1.5" in drawer width to do this.
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On 2/4/2016 9:12 AM, Leon wrote:

Correction, Give up 1" of drawer width. I forgot that I use 1/2" Baltic birch for the inserts.
Now having said that the inserts are much easier if they sit on the cabinet floor vs. directly under the counter top.
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On 2/4/2016 9:12 AM, Leon wrote:

Really depends upon the client's budget, and how many drawers, on whether inserts would be a cost effective solution.
Yep, I'm a fan of inserts and they do work well in some instances, but it doesn't appear to me from the photos, and Mike's post that inserts will work in this instance, but I'm judging by what's transpired on the group thus far.
They certainly won't be able to keep the, apparently still serviceable, drawers with that approach ... and even with 1/2" inserts, the loss in drawer width will be closer to 2" the way the "face frame" looks in that photo.
Then again, it's all in the budget ...
I did use a box "inserts" for all the drawers on the job below, mainly due to the fact that the cabinetry (rails and stile nailed together, totally out of square, and so flimsy that I couldn't guarantee the client they would hold up under the intended use of holding hundreds of pounds of paper files):
https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShop4017Cabinetry?noredirect=1#
Example of the shoddy work I'm talking about these days. The above was in a 6 year old, $2.1m home, the trim on these cabinets fell off when the painters were re-staining, and they simply could not have been used, "as built" for what the client wanted to do.
But they sure looked pretty though ... :(
Now, going on three years, they are working as intended, still look great, and a good example of what inserts can do.
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On 2/4/2016 9:41 AM, Swingman wrote:

Kind'a ;~) The inserts are always less than my quote for crawling around inside the cabinets installing hardware. LOL
I did a job for a customer up in friggin The Woodlands. Bathroom vanity. I built a new drawer and 4 doors. The new drawer bounced around after install using the old hardware. Closer inspection revealed that the slides, like the ones Mike is dealing with, were not pointed in the same direction. One side of the slides was 1/2" lower in the back. Oddly there was a hole in the cabinet in the correct location but unused. I simply relocated the slide to that location and all was well. The customer brought me the drawer so I was unable to assess the situation before hand.
I think the biggest problem with prefab slides and drawers is that they are meant to be installed/stapled quickly and allow for a lot of slop with the thought that the installer will tweak upon install. And the installer thinks that all is done since the drawer does go in and out.
And CRAP materials that do not hold up.

Yeah, It is kinda hard to determine exactly which route would be best with out an over all picture and where exactly...

Probably not.

I have replaced/rebuilt some drawers in the Deerwood homes out here. I swear the kitchen drawer bottoms are 1/8" thick material and it is not plywood, it really look liked Masonite or the likes. Needless to say the bottoms broke out. Pure S**t.
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Swingman wrote:

OK, customers (almost all) wouldn't be able to tell good from bad, most go only by general appearance, but the GC would. As would whatever sub made the cabinets. So why such crummy work in a rather high end home? Were they (GC and sub) just greedy thieves? Incompetent?
It does point up a problem that most - including me - have in finding knowledgable, competent contractors at a fair price. IME, admittedly not great, probably at least 50% are either looking to buy a yacht courtesy of me, or don't know up from down. It can be tough finding a good one. Yes, one can check referrals; trouble is, those past customers really aren't qualified to judge good from bad...unless there was a major screwup, they probably will say that all is fine. Which is why when one DOES find a good one - such as you or Leon or others here - one should treasure them.
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On 2/4/2016 11:18 AM, dadiOH wrote:

In many cases, ALL the above.
Plus many builder's simply do not do the level of supervision necessary to get an acceptable job out of the semi-skilled labor pool available in many locations, and particularly during times of great demand.
And, no secret that many "tract" and "spec" home builders prefer not to put money where it can't be seen.
The cabinets throughout that house looked great ... and functioned just long enough to sell.

Amen, brother!
Neither Leon, Robert (nor Mike, as he is finding out) really need to advertise, and likely have to constantly turn work away ... all attributable mostly to a single trait:
We care about doing the job properly, even to point of losing money if necessary to so, and we must be able to walk away at the finish knowing we've provided a first class job.
That's how simple it is. :)
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On 2/4/16 11:34 AM, Swingman wrote:

I've already told the stories of the $650k+ homes around here with horrible, particleboard, lowest-end cabinets throughout the home.
Yesterday I was in the home of a new client, on the way out I was presented with a "if you have a sec, could you look at this?" In the master suite of this $1.3million home there is a his & hers walk-in closet that I swear is bigger than my first apartment, which was outfitted floor to ceiling with nooks, crannies, drawers, cubbies, racks, and hanging bars, by California Closets. All particleboard laminated with Formica and wood-grain stickers. All the drawer fronts are falling off one-by-one, not because of the inherent flaws in the building materials, but because the "skilled laborer" used drywall screws to attach them to the drawer boxes.
I have an idea what California Closets charges for a behemoth install like that and they were to cheap or too lazy to buy some good drawer front screws designed for particleboard.
We live in a Walmart/Ikea/Wayfair age in which sheep are sold in wolves' clothing and most people don't know or even care about the difference between a California Closet installation and what one of us would do. Until we are brought in to fix it all at a much higher rate. :-)

Since putting some effort into sustaining this handyman thing, I'm starting to build up a stable of loyal clients who see the value in that and appreciate, respect, and even covet the aspects and performance we bring to a job.
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Swingman wrote:

May your tribe increase, ojala :)
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On 2/4/2016 11:18 AM, dadiOH wrote:

I think the real reason that the high dollars homes are sold with crap cabinets, and low dollar homes too, is because our society has become very specialized. Students today do not learn what you need to be self sufficient rather they go to school and focus on one thing. They are clueless about how to do any kind of repair. What they see in new homes is pretty but have no idea that pretty does not equate to quality. Unfortunately specializing in only one field and not being a little bit knowledgeable about most anything leaves them vulnerable and therefore are taken advantage of and Sold a load of crap. Let the buyer beware.
These rich buyers are ignorant of value.

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On 2/4/16 12:20 AM, Leon wrote:

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought you were talking about building smaller cabinet box that would fit inside the existing ones. If that's correct, I just see that as a heck of a lot more work than cutting down some spacer blocks and screwing them to the insides of the existing cabinets.
But again, I may not understand what you meant.
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-MIKE-

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On 2/4/2016 10:55 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

Inserts for face frame cabinets don't have to be boxes, they can be a anything from a frame, to full casework, depending upon aesthetics, what needs to be accomplished, and, most importantly, budget.
They can be this simple, or full case work, the principle is the same:
https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJigsFixturesMethods?noredirect=1#6098721408138140050
That said, do you want to rebuild the drawers?
And, if you want to rebuild the drawers and use some type of insert, plus the fact that it's a commercial operation and there apparently has been problems with heavy duty use, would you not be remiss recommending "heavy duty" drawer slides for any newly built drawers?
Remember, those almost always need 3/4" clearance on either side, meaning with any type of insert, and the face frames I saw, plus the required extra clearance, they will lose almost 2" in drawer width.
Only a well informed (by you) client, and his budget, can tell you which way to go.
Hopefully all this back and forth has been helpful in that regard.
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On 2/4/16 11:10 AM, Swingman wrote:

Great picture and idea!

No. I think they are plenty strong, as are the cabinet boxes. As I said, the only real weak link are the slides. It's like they built a motorcycle with a big motor and heavy duty frame and put bicycle wheels on it.

It has absolutely been very helpful. I knew if certain guys got involved it would be. This is the only reason I still use this archaic dinosaur of a newsgroup. :-) I know there are about a half-dozen guys who actually know WTF they're talking about and give some great advice based on actual working experience.
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-MIKE-

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On 2/4/2016 11:21 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

Can take credit for the SketchUp drawing, but not the idea ... pretty much a time honored method of retrofitting drawers in existing cabinetry.
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