Do you care where your tools are manufactured?

Have to agree with you Mac. Remember when "J.A.Pan & Co." meant junk or popcorn toys (must be dating myself there). Their first cars into North America were a joke, but they did their homework and now they are forerunners in industry. It seems that China may be following the same route.

Reply to
Ralph
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That and/or the fact that Japanese industry can do updates and renovations

One of the reasons for that is the significant resistance of organized labor to any changes in plant configuration that might automate something and take away a job. They were successful for a while, but that eventually caught up to both the steel and auto industries. I believe Leon posted a while back about the amount in a new GM car that goes to pay the health insurance for retired workers.

Reply to
Mark & Juanita

I think, at a certain point it becomes obvious that a company is trying to bilk you for every red cent they can. Walk thru the tool dept at Sears lately? It's more like Harbor Freight than Home Depot. Yet the prices are still up there. Sears used to mean quality... the best. Now it means the bean counters are going to grind the company's formerly good name into the dirt to make a good profit this quarter.

I don't mind paying for quality. Once in a while I buy cheap, if it passes the grade. But I will pass the junk every time. If there is a quality tool available, I will buy it if I can.

Reply to
Bob the Tomato

While it was plenty "good enough", especially for the DIY world, I don't think Sears was ever "The Best". In many cases, Sears was simply the only game in town.

Reply to
Bonehenge (B A R R Y)

-snip of faux talking points-

Then we have the other side of the coin. Let's take Delta as an example.

Established, long term, excellent reputation for WW machinery. Happened to be made in USA (vs, say Japan). Moved production to China. Quality went to H#LL.

Never was one to buy strictly American, but when American (or Japan, or Germany,...) had the reputation for the best, that's what I buy. Now, they keep their premium pricing - for Chinese junk.

This is my big issue - premium pricing remains - production costs waay down after moving to China; quality inevitably deterioted in some way.

Won't be buying new Delta any time soon. Maybe one day the quality will be back, the customer service will have some folks who know the difference between the stationary tools and portable stuff, then can revisit decision.

Renata

Reply to
Renata

Huh? Was in there a couple of days ago, they still have the Bosch jigsaws and the Orion hybrid saws and the polished wrenches and so on that they had a year ago.

Their reputation was made on hand tools, not power, and finish on their hand tools is better than it was 20 years ago. They see Snap-on as their competitor in that market and it shows. But even in that market Craftsman was never "the best", they were what you got if you couldn't afford Snap-On.

Their Craftsman Professional power tools have always been decent, seldom the best in the industry but one could count on them to do what they were supposed to do and still can. One example is their jigsaw, which is clearly a relabelled Bosch (and jigsaws don't _come_ better than Bosch) but not the latest and greatest model. I've seen accusations that the Craftsman Professional tools are cheapened versions, but I've never seen anyone post side-by-side photos of their innards that demonstrates this, it's always been vague assertions.

Their bench tools have always been a mixed bag--some have been decent, some crap. Right now their Orion table saws are probably the best table saw they've ever sold under their own brand. Their radial arm saws are mechanically pretty much like they were 30 years ago, they've just changed the trim and added a few bells and whistles over the years. Their new band saws are quite good--they cut corners on features, not on cutting ability.

Reply to
J. Clarke

Reply to
Cooniedog

But their open end and box wrenches of 40 years ago were better designed than the ones today. You could bet better leverage but they cost more to make.

I've heard accusation that Home Depot tools are cheapened compared to the same DeWalt bough at the local hardware stores also, but I've never seen proof.

Reply to
Edwin Pawlowski

I mean "the best" in terms of what was readily available to the average guy walking in off the street. I have never been to a snap-on dealer, or ever purchased one of their tools, because we simply run in different circles. I'm not a professional mechanic. (I'm talking hand tools in this instance, although the same argument could be made for hand held power tools, but probably not for heavy stationary tools... since Sears really didn't try to get into that market.)

Reply to
Bob the Tomato

I wouldn't have said they were anything different that what S-K or Proto or several others also had available at the same time -- the only difference was the distribution outlet(s).

As for the "then" and "now" for an open-end Craftsman wrench -- I just had a need for a replacement of one that was at least that old -- the new one is identical in form factor--the only difference is the stamping, etc. I don't ken the complaint...

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Reply to
dpb

Indeed people show a willingness to pay more for higher perceived quality. Many folks buy a Honda or Toyota car for more money than the GM, Ford or Chrysler car in the same segment and pay more for it. They do so because they believe it is a higher quality product and for the most part their beliefs are well founded.

Every year Toyota and Honda add to their US manufacturing base and do so with great success. Honda and other Japanese companies have taken command of the small engine and marine engine markets as well.

Most of these outsourcing decisions are made by overpaid MBA graduates who only care about putting "accomplishments" on their resumes to further pad the paychecks.

John

Reply to
John Horner

The majority of Chinese companies are in fact owned by the government.

Reply to
John Horner

I go to Sears about once in a blue moon... was there the day after Thanksgiving actually. I think we are perceiving things differently.

I'm not talking about Sears selling Bosch or Makita. I'm talking specifically about Craftsman.

Do you know the "Harbor Freight Smell"? That's the smell of lead paint mixed with cheap plasticizers, or something. Anyhow, it's very distinctive, and Sears didn't have it until a couple of years ago. The HF power tools have this cheap plastic housing that is usually orange or something. It actually has a bit of an oily film on it when you first take the tool out of the box. It might be mold release, or it might be plasticizer oozing out of the plastic, I don't know. And they *always* have that strong smell. Then you have the cardboard box. I keep the old boxes from my purchases. That way I can locate by Craftsman jigsaw from 1985 quickly, and keep all the accessories and the manual together with it. Those cardboard boxes are sturdy and have a real solid feel about them. The new ones feel like a wet cereal box. I don't know how to describe it, they just do.

The stationary power tools that you mentioned: I just have to rebut that. I mean this in all good humor, what drugs are you on? The table saws are just garbage. The radial arm saws are better, but they are a pale shadow of where they were 10 years ago. You can't cut corners on a radial arm saw or it will cut corners on you!! The benchtop saws are pure junk. I have a 3 wheel bandsaw from a while back that has a metal case, with a metal door, and metal wheels, and a nice quiet motor. Granted, it still has that *annoying* slotted aluminum top, but as you say, it does the job. The new ones are almost all plastic and they are getting more flimsy every single time I see them. The accessories to all of the stationary and bench top tools are very poor, unless you are doing something like upselling a TS with a Bessemier fence. (But then again, Craftsman branded tablesaws have had very poor factory fences for 20 years). I had my dad's old craftsman TS, again with the *annoying* slotted aluminum top, and the old fence. I put an Incra fence on it, and it improved

100%. Then after I used it for a while, I really decided I needed something better, so I moved up to a real cabinet saw. However the new TS in the same class as the my old one is half the saw, with cheaper accessories. My point is that you need to take a look at those $500 table saws compared to anyone else, and compared to where they used to be. They are flimsy, compared to say a Jet 10" contractor saw at the same price at HD. The $200-$500 ones don't even classify as a joke. They've been going downhill at quite a steep angle. I don't think they can go much lower.

Wrenches, screwdrivers? Sure, they are still good but they sure are expensive compared to yesteryear (individual, not in the million piece tool set). What's interesting is to go to HF and compare the HF set of combination wrenches, in full polished chrome, with a lifetime warranty, on sale at $8 a set, to the exact same Craftsman set (with the name) at the old price. Fit and finish are identical (actually the chinese set may be slightly superior). I do buy Craftsman wrenches and screwdrivers when I can get a real deal. Usually I won't buy 1-2 missing sockets though (that's how they make their money). I found that some local secondhand stores may have one or two mixed in, and you might luck out and get them for 50 cents.

I have to say I don't have any experience with their Professional series power tools, so I bow to your wisdom there.

Reply to
Bob the Tomato

....

Officially yes, practically firms work together. The owner of Grizzly states he builds in both places.

Reply to
Ralph E Lindberg

Because in the 1960s and 1970s their group think mentality concluded that stereos and televisions were a "mature" market not worthy of further investment. This is MBA doctrine 101, get out of slow growth mature businesses and invest in high expected growth new opportunities.

Little did they foresee that here we are a few decades later and consumer electronics are by far the runaway hits of the Christmas shopping season.

There is no good reason why the flat panel television bonanza couldn't have been Made in the USA. The management herds all ran away from that business and it is now gone forever.

John

Reply to
John Horner

There are very few modern Delta branded tools for which I'm willing to pay a price premium, because it is almost all Chinese junk much like the competition's. Why pay Delta prices for Grizzly quality?

John

Reply to
John Horner

You can't lay this all on the current administration alone as this trend has been going along for a very, very long time. If you want to see a family which is unduly friendly with the Chinese, check out the Clintons.

Reply to
John Horner

That again is an oversimplification -- was in E TN where there was a nearby facility of, Motorola/Quasar/Sylvania/I forget the pedigree as it went through a succession trying to keep it alive. In the end, the labor costs were the killer as compared to offshore and despite several major retoolings for the electronics portions, the cabinetry and peripherals remained the high-cost items they couldn't compete against and eventually the whole facility went away...but it was the last US production facility and management didn't walk away early or lightly.

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Reply to
dpb

I literally looked at a 07 Tundra last afer looking at GMC and Chevrolet. I have always owned GMC and Chev trucks and had a $6K+ incentive to go with the GM products again. After driving GM I decided to not buy at all but went a head and drove the Tundra because I had an appointment to do so. It was a no brainer to choose the Tundra. The GM products were uncomfortable amd the rear doors flexed and mooved while going over bumps.

The simple fact is, the US economy is no longer big on manufacturing. It is no longer as profitable to over pay workers for a skill that 3rd world countries can do. If they could not do the work we would not be buying their products. If we want better we buy Japanese or European. Its the Capitalistic way of doing business. Until the US can deliver equal value or better the manufacturing jobs will go to other countries. The manufacturing phase in this U.S. economy has come and gone and I would imagine a lot of it is because of the large unions that have negotiated workers benefits so much that the worker benefits more from the production of products than the business does. It's a no brainer, have your products built by a company that is not smothered by union labor.

Reply to
Leon

One thing the foreign pickups don't have is a diesel. Last year I got a used (57k miles) '04 Silverado 2500HD 6.6L Duramax regular cab full box with the Allison transmission. The previous owner put a Banks exhaust system on it. It is one towing machine for my 5th wheel! Gets 23mpg highway and 13.5mpg towing (on a 4200 mile trip this last summer). It was _very_ comfortable on that trip.

Reply to
Doug Winterburn

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