Delta vs Steel City Table Saw

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wrote:

Nope, remember this? http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/techline/producing_spalted_wood.pdf
OTOH, there's no real degrade going on, either.
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mac davis wrote:

Pfft!. 7" of snow on Friday, -29 on Friday nite, and freezing rain forecast for tonite.
The Gatineaus, Quebec. Where men are men and even the cows are a bit nervous. The sheep are in therapy.
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George wrote:

I'd love to have a Mississippi Delta saw too, but sadly only the TOP of the line saws are still made here in the good ol' US of A. The Delta I am comparing with the SC are both made over in China...
I want to go American, but can not afford more than around $1000 for a TS.
Adam
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I have a Delta Cabinet Saw, the cheapest cabinet saw they made back then. I bought it new around 1990. I am a moderate user. Woodworking is a hobby, not a profession. But, I have never had any problems with it. I like it. When you make an adjustment, it stays adjusted. Mine is made in the U.S. I have come to the conclusion that U.S., European, and Japanese quality far exceeds that of Taiwan, China, and Korea when it comes to tools. I have a couple of Delta tools, drill press and portable planer, that are made in Taiwan. They are not up to the quality of my Delta table saw or lathe made in the U.S. but still quite servicable. I no longer by tools made anyhwere but the U.S., Western Europe, or Japan. I prefer to buy U.S. made tools when possible. I'm particular about quality. I am a retired engineer/engineering professor.
Happy saw dust making.
Bill
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US-made is always good, but as a practical matter, understand that most US manufacturers started moving their casting operations to the Far East and South America by 1980, Delta included. And this was not just for the lower end of their product lines. In the mid-80's Delta was selling industrial tools made for them in South America.
Faced with re-tooling because (a) your post-war factories are worn out, and (b) they don't meet Clean Air and OSHA requirements, what would you do? Go to a developing country that doesn't have the regulations, has cheaper labor and gives you tax abatements. Duh.
Quality is not geographic; Deming studied the Japanese to understand how they did it. Also consider, say, Chevrolet vs. Hyundai: Who had the 100K warranty first? Not GM. When they re-designed their pickups in the late 80's, they gave a 50K warranty. Ours was back for warranty repairs and recalls numerous times, and then the warranty on new vehicles was back to 36K/36 months. In the end it comes down to corporate will. Now that Dewalt owns Delta, my personal jury is out. The local Delta distributor admitted that they had high hopes for some new and improved products when the ownership changed, but so far all they've seen is a massive advertising campaign.
Bill T. Ray wrote:

[snip]
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On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:42:28 GMT, Tim Mueller

Maybe accurate but doesn't tell the whole story. The units mostly discussed in this forum, the top of the line Unisaw, Contractor Saw, 14" Band Saw, All Radial Arm Saws, Lathes, and others were entirely made in America until approximately 2003. Content on each of these units was in the 95% range including the cast iron.
Invicta (Brazil) produced 12" and up table saws (very low volume, very good saws) Jointers and Planers and this actually preceeded the mid eighties. The jointers and Planers were moved to either Taiwan or China in the late '90s

Absolutley none of these statements apply to Delta's situation. It might interest one to know that the the last cast iron package sent from the Tupelo factory to China actually cost more from China. Nothing was worn out, there were no environmental or safety issues, the closing of the plant was a reaction to a consolidation strategy that went very wrong and lost a significant amount of market share as a result. With the lower volume something had to give, and with the PC people in control of major decisions, they decided to close Tupelo. The alternative was to partially close Jackson, TN. (where they all lived and what had been designated tool group headquarters post consolidation). When it became apparent that it was too little too late, they (the corporation) put the division up for sale.
I can't speak for others in the industry.

False. Demming taught the Japanese how to do it. He brought statistical process control, the basis for all aspects of lean manufacturing, to the Japanese when the US auto manufacturers were not interested. Prior to his indoctrination the Japanese were known for cheap junk.
Frank

A very good saw, by the way, but only had about a four year run, then was discontinued for reasons of low volume.

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Frank Boettcher wrote:

Like the A6M5 and the Type 91 torpedo? The Japanese did listen to Deming and implemented his methods with great success, but they wouldn't have if they weren't already very quality-conscious. The hardware they were making during WWII was already superb. They just couldn't make enough of it.

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On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:14:58 -0500, "J. Clarke"

Your opinion? Or is there some statistical basis for your statement

While I have no idea if that statement is true what has it got to do with the deplorable state of Japanese manufacturing after the war? My statement simply corrected a comment that said that Deming studied the Japanese to determine how to manufacture. He did not, he taught them. He taught them to manufacture and distribute mass produced products for the global markets, something they had failed miserably at prior to his intervention.
Frank

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wrote:

Yeah, a combat aircraft with no armor and no self-sealing fuel tanks. Seems like a neat way to cut corners. Good range, too.
The Long Lance was a helluva good torpedo. Wasn't built with the precision and hand fitting that went into our MK XIV. Work of art. Worthless, of course, but certainly superior in "fit and finish."
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Frank Boettcher wrote:

Google "A6M5" and "Type 91 Torpedo" and get back to me. Or read _any_ book about air operations in the Pacific in WWII, or _any_ account of the attack on Pearl Harbor.

There's a difference between what one knows _how_ to do and what one _can_ do working with improvised tools in the midst of burned-out rubble that used to be a factory.

If you stopped there you would have been fine. It is a matter of record that the Japanese did study his methods and the Gilbreths' and everybody else they could get to talk to them.
Where you went astray was in suggesting that prior to Deming the Japanese were known for cheap junk. That would be a surprise to every pilot who got the finest fighter in the US Navy shot out from under him by one of those pieces of junk, to every Brit who got his Spitfire shot out from under him by one of those pieces of junk, to every sailor whose ship was sunk by one of those pieces of junk, to the planners who arranged the defenses around Pearl Harbor on the basis that one of those pieces of junk could not possibly exist . . .

He taught them to _distribute_? Sorry, Deming was a QC guy, not a marketing guy. They learned that somewhere else.
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On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:37:44 -0500, "J. Clarke"

Read it carefully. Do you realize that lean which is rooted in statistical methods can be applied to any process.

W. Edwards Deming From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search W. Edwards Deming
Born     October 14, 1900(1900-10-14) Sioux City, Iowa, USA Died     December 20, 1993 (aged 93) Washington DC, USA Occupation     Statistician
William Edwards Deming (October 14, 1900December 20, 1993) was an American statistician, college professor, author, lecturer, and consultant. Deming is widely credited with improving production in the United States during World War II, although he is perhaps best known for his work in Japan. There, from 1950 onward he taught top management how to improve design (and thus service), product quality, testing and sales (the last through global markets)[1] through various methods, including the application of statistical methods such as analysis of variance (ANOVA) and hypothesis testing.
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Frank Boettcher wrote:

So you're saying that the Japanese in the 1950s were practicing "lean marketing" and succeeded because of it? While I might buy that for "you meet the nicest people on a Honda" (which they screwed up by never really developing a "Honda culture" analogous to the "Harley culture"), "Corolloa, the new one from Toyota" when nobody had ever seen the _old_ one from Toyota and the jingle was accompanied by a black and white still photo of the car was certainly _lean_ but it was also kind of pathetic.
By the way, this notion of "lean" is a relatively new one.

Wikipedia articles are no more authoritative than are posts on this newsgroup. If you did not know this then you need to learn it. Anybody can edit a wikipedia article. Use one as a reference and if someone really wants to make you look foolish it will be changed the next time you look at it. If you turn in a paper for a university course and cite wikipedia as your primary source then you will almose certainly get marked down for it--some schools do not allow it to be cited at all.
In any case, nobody has contested the contention that Deming showed the Japanese how to improve their quality, so your continuing to jump up and down and say "did so, did so" is pointless.
What is at issue is the baseline from which that quality was improved. And that baseline was far, _far_ higher than you seem to think it was.
I'd like to see a _reliable_ source for Deming having marketing expertise.
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"Frank Boettcher" wrote

IMHO, a private plonk is highly recommended/in order at this point ... t'will save you time better spent on those who actually make sense.
And thanks, once again, for a participation based on firsthand knowledge and practical experience, instead of conjecture. It's appreciated!
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Swingman wrote:

Indeed Franks posts are always a "must read".....A bit like hiding in the back room and hearing the inside skinny. Rod
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Rod & Betty Jo wrote:

Anybody who pontificates about how the Japanese were only capable of producing "junk" prior to the intervention of Deming simply does _not_ know enough for his opinion to be worth listening to. I'm sorry, but that's the way of it. You can go on worshipping this person if you want to, but study some history and you'll find out just how wrong he is.
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On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 06:24:34 -0500, "J. Clarke"

They were quite capable of producing junk prior to 1950 (a military sidearm comes to mind). You are the one pontificating I AM RIGHT YOU ARE WRONG, imo.
Mark (sixoneeight) = 618
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Markem wrote:

And they are still capable of producing junk. There was no assertion that everything they made was of outstanding quality, it wasn't then and it isn't now, the assertion was that prior to Deming they could not produce anything else, and that is patently not so.
If you are judging them solely by one handgun then you are also not sufficiently familiar with history for your opinion to be worth listening to.
I've given examples of Japanese products that were generally agreed to be first class and arguably the best in the world prior to Deming. If you think that they were "junk" then perhaps you can support that argument.
Let's make it easy, try writing a paragraph starting with "The A6M5 was junk because . . ." Try another starting with "The type 91 torpedo was junk because . . .". Try another "The type 93 torpedo was junk because . . ." Try another "The Nakajima B5N2 was junk because . . ." While you're about it, try one starting with "The Japanese fleet participating in the Battle of Tsushima was junk because . . ."
And your are correct, because I _am_ right on this point and anyone who thinks that the Japanese were incapable of producing anything but "junk" prior to Deming _is_ wrong.
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On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:01:09 -0500, "J. Clarke"

Your reading of what I said was wrong actually, FOAD
Mark
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Markem wrote:

If you meant something different then you should have written something different or made some effort to clarify.
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On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 10:52:08 -0500, "J. Clarke"

Only in your mind, definitely no requirement on my part to do so.
Mark
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