I have a Delta Cabinet Saw, the cheapest cabinet saw they made back then. I bought it new around 1990. I am a moderate user. Woodworking is a hobby, not a profession. But, I have never had any problems with it. I like it. When you make an adjustment, it stays adjusted. Mine is made in the U.S. I have come to the conclusion that U.S., European, and Japanese quality far exceeds that of Taiwan, China, and Korea when it comes to tools. I have a couple of Delta tools, drill press and portable planer, that are made in Taiwan. They are not up to the quality of my Delta table saw or lathe made in the U.S. but still quite servicable. I no longer by tools made anyhwere but the U.S., Western Europe, or Japan. I prefer to buy U.S. made tools when possible. I'm particular about quality. I am a retired engineer/engineering professor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Steel City is a relatively new outfit, it has been getting a lot >>>>> of
For the sake of clarity, what has been labeled a hybrid cabinet saw in the past is a saw with trunnion brackets mounted to the bottom of the table and a tie bar trunnion carriage assembly. Essentially a contractor saw that has had the motor mounting relocated, maybe with the addition of a half HP, and an enclosed cabinet added. Dewalt also produces one that has a 3/4" cabinet, I believe.
The next step up was a cabinet saw that had wide trunnion brackets mounted at the four corners of the top plate of the cabinet with a very heavy, all cast iron trunnion yoke assembly. Top of the line Unisaw, PM66 (slightly different design here), General (Canadian) and far east imports Jet, Griz, and some other knockoffs.
The saw you depicted is a hybrid of a hybrid. Got the cabinet mounted trunnion brackets, but the trunnion carriage is a contractor tie bar style.
I would agree with the comments about increased stability and lessoning of vibration, however, the "perfect" blade alignment really depends on how well it is manufactured. Fact is that all saws can be adjusted to "perfect" at 90, but the differential at 45 then becomes the variable. It is slightly more difficult for the manufacturer to insure a limited differential with a cabinet mounted system. With the table mounted system, the table is machined and ground so the plane of the top compared to the plane of the mounting bosses has a capable range of a few thou. With a cabinet mounted system, the top plate of a cabinet is subject to the capable range of blanking, forming, and welding sheet metals, so that plane difference may be .020". Distances and projected dimensions come into play. If the manufacturer is sloppy with their sheet metal work, that 45 dimension is not going to be so hot.
The owner can always shim to "perfection" if inclined to do so, the manufacturer will not be able to take the time on an assembly line.
Above for information purposes only, I'll not comment on your choices, have not seen or used either of them. I know all the principles involved with Steel City, they are all ex-Delta and good product people. I know that they have made an effort to treat their distributors equitably so it does not surprise me that the dealers reccommend their product. But as to the product itself, you should do the necessary due diligence to compare.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Steel City is a relatively new outfit, it has been getting a >>>>>> lot >>>>>> of
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>>>> They say this:
One of the other features on that particular model is "Exterior Adjustment for 45° and 90° Blade Stops: Provides easy and accurate settings for the 45° and 90° positive stops."
US-made is always good, but as a practical matter, understand that most US manufacturers started moving their casting operations to the Far East and South America by 1980, Delta included. And this was not just for the lower end of their product lines. In the mid-80's Delta was selling industrial tools made for them in South America.
Faced with re-tooling because (a) your post-war factories are worn out, and (b) they don't meet Clean Air and OSHA requirements, what would you do? Go to a developing country that doesn't have the regulations, has cheaper labor and gives you tax abatements. Duh.
Quality is not geographic; Deming studied the Japanese to understand how they did it. Also consider, say, Chevrolet vs. Hyundai: Who had the
100K warranty first? Not GM. When they re-designed their pickups > I have a Delta Cabinet Saw, the cheapest cabinet saw they made back
[snip]
Maybe accurate but doesn't tell the whole story. The units mostly discussed in this forum, the top of the line Unisaw, Contractor Saw,
14" Band Saw, All Radial Arm Saws, Lathes, and others were entirely made in America until approximately 2003. Content on each of these units was in the 95% range including the cast iron.
Invicta (Brazil) produced 12" and up table saws (very low volume, very good saws) Jointers and Planers and this actually preceeded the mid eighties. The jointers and Planers were moved to either Taiwan or China in the late '90s
Absolutley none of these statements apply to Delta's situation. It might interest one to know that the the last cast iron package sent from the Tupelo factory to China actually cost more from China. Nothing was worn out, there were no environmental or safety issues, the closing of the plant was a reaction to a consolidation strategy that went very wrong and lost a significant amount of market share as a result. With the lower volume something had to give, and with the PC people in control of major decisions, they decided to close Tupelo. The alternative was to partially close Jackson, TN. (where they all lived and what had been designated tool group headquarters post consolidation). When it became apparent that it was too little too late, they (the corporation) put the division up for sale.
I can't speak for others in the industry.
False. Demming taught the Japanese how to do it. He brought statistical process control, the basis for all aspects of lean manufacturing, to the Japanese when the US auto manufacturers were not interested. Prior to his indoctrination the Japanese were known for cheap junk.
Frank
A very good saw, by the way, but only had about a four year run, then was discontinued for reasons of low volume.
The "Steel City" looks good in the picture. But the description says very little about the "Fence System," one of the most important parts of any table saw.
Like the A6M5 and the Type 91 torpedo? The Japanese did listen to Deming and implemented his methods with great success, but they wouldn't have if they weren't already very quality-conscious. The hardware they were making during WWII was already superb. They just couldn't make enough of it.
Look at what. The portion of the Steel City web ad that the OP referred to had to do with "perfect blade alignment" as a result of "cabinet mounted trunions" That is what I was referring to and that has nothing to do with blade stops. That fact that it has exterior adjustable stops is nice, but not unique.
Your opinion? Or is there some statistical basis for your statement
While I have no idea if that statement is true what has it got to do with the deplorable state of Japanese manufacturing after the war? My statement simply corrected a comment that said that Deming studied the Japanese to determine how to manufacture. He did not, he taught them. He taught them to manufacture and distribute mass produced products for the global markets, something they had failed miserably at prior to his intervention.
Yeah, a combat aircraft with no armor and no self-sealing fuel tanks. Seems like a neat way to cut corners. Good range, too.
The Long Lance was a helluva good torpedo. Wasn't built with the precision and hand fitting that went into our MK XIV. Work of art. Worthless, of course, but certainly superior in "fit and finish."
Then would you be kind enough to explain what you _did_ mean by "Has nothing to do with 90 or 45 degree blade alignment to the slot which was the claim in the ad and was what I was addressing with my post."
Google "A6M5" and "Type 91 Torpedo" and get back to me. Or read _any_ book about air operations in the Pacific in WWII, or _any_ account of the attack on Pearl Harbor.
There's a difference between what one knows _how_ to do and what one _can_ do working with improvised tools in the midst of burned-out rubble that used to be a factory.
If you stopped there you would have been fine. It is a matter of record that the Japanese did study his methods and the Gilbreths' and everybody else they could get to talk to them.
Where you went astray was in suggesting that prior to Deming the Japanese were known for cheap junk. That would be a surprise to every pilot who got the finest fighter in the US Navy shot out from under him by one of those pieces of junk, to every Brit who got his Spitfire shot out from under him by one of those pieces of junk, to every sailor whose ship was sunk by one of those pieces of junk, to the planners who arranged the defenses around Pearl Harbor on the basis that one of those pieces of junk could not possibly exist . . .
He taught them to _distribute_? Sorry, Deming was a QC guy, not a marketing guy. They learned that somewhere else.
Read it carefully. Do you realize that lean which is rooted in statistical methods can be applied to any process.
W. Edwards Deming From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search W. Edwards Deming
Born October 14, 1900(1900-10-14) Sioux City, Iowa, USA Died December 20, 1993 (aged 93) Washington DC, USA Occupation Statistician
William Edwards Deming (October 14, 1900?December 20, 1993) was an American statistician, college professor, author, lecturer, and consultant. Deming is widely credited with improving production in the United States during World War II, although he is perhaps best known for his work in Japan. There, from 1950 onward he taught top management how to improve design (and thus service), product quality, testing and sales (the last through global markets)[1] through various methods, including the application of statistical methods such as analysis of variance (ANOVA) and hypothesis testing.
90 degree alignment to the slot is the measurement of the blade to the miter slot on the table on a continuous basis along the entire length of the blade. The desired outcome is that there is no difference at any point.
45 degree is simply the same measurement taken with the blade tilted to 45 degrees.
Manufacturers don't actually use a blade, they use a ground, calibrated plate so as not to induce the tolerances of the blade into the setting or final check.
The stops you refer to are to set the blade tilt angle, either perpendicular to or at a 45 degree angle to, the table.
So you're saying that the Japanese in the 1950s were practicing "lean marketing" and succeeded because of it? While I might buy that for "you meet the nicest people on a Honda" (which they screwed up by never really developing a "Honda culture" analogous to the "Harley culture"), "Corolloa, the new one from Toyota" when nobody had ever seen the _old_ one from Toyota and the jingle was accompanied by a black and white still photo of the car was certainly _lean_ but it was also kind of pathetic.
By the way, this notion of "lean" is a relatively new one.
Wikipedia articles are no more authoritative than are posts on this newsgroup. If you did not know this then you need to learn it. Anybody can edit a wikipedia article. Use one as a reference and if someone really wants to make you look foolish it will be changed the next time you look at it. If you turn in a paper for a university course and cite wikipedia as your primary source then you will almose certainly get marked down for it--some schools do not allow it to be cited at all.
In any case, nobody has contested the contention that Deming showed the Japanese how to improve their quality, so your continuing to jump up and down and say "did so, did so" is pointless.
What is at issue is the baseline from which that quality was improved. And that baseline was far, _far_ higher than you seem to think it was.
I'd like to see a _reliable_ source for Deming having marketing expertise.
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