Decline in craftsmanship

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On 7/22/2012 11:36 PM, Bill wrote:

My son is going to RPI, the cost is astronomical. Fortunately he received the RPI award. But it just makes a dent in it.
The president of the university has a chauffeur driven Audi A8... one for each day of the week. Yes 7 A8's...
The school just built a new stand so she can act like Cesar at the hockey games... But she doesn't go to them. That took away a lot of grand stand area for her to entertain.
They built a world class auditorium.
The money that they are being endowed with seems to go more toward the admin side or to build prestige. On top of that outrageous increases in tuition, it doubled in the last few years or so before he was of age.
I made a promise to him when he was young.. if he got the grades I would provide the tuition. I put away a lot of money when he was born, and for the next few years.
The stock market took it away.. I lost principle as well as the early gains. I wish I stuck it under the mattress. I won't go back on my word, but I am in serious trouble for retirement. It's been hard holding a job lately. More foreigners are getting them, then us citizens.
All this makes for a perfect storm here. I only hope he has a better life than I, and doesn't have the problems I face now. Unfortunately he is in comp sci , so he is in the same career.

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On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 18:50:42 -0400, tiredofspam <nospam.nospam.com> wrote:

And the ONE carreer that contrary to public opinion, will be the HARDEST to make a living in over the next decade or two in North America.
You want a GOOD job? Work on something that cannot be shipped off-shore. Design and build of equipment is gone from the NA market. Same with consumer goods. SERVICING big ticket items, like automobiles and homes, will provide employment for another couple of generations. Same with installing and repairing the equipment that is required to manufacture what little is left being manufactured here.
MOST of the millrights and industrial mechanics are reaching retirement age, and very few new ones have been trained. Same with Auto Mechanics. Electricians and other building trades are in the same boat. Forget tool and die for a few more years - it's all sent offshore except for the repair and re-work. Appliance repair is going the way of the TV repairman - as is computer repair. Throw it away - not worth fixing. Send another job to China, Maylasia, or very soon Africa. Computer programming? India, China and eastern Europe are eating your lunch. Same with tech support.

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On 7/23/2012 7:35 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

I know. I worked for a company that was an early adopter of Indian labor. Back in 1986 they started.. I saw the writing on the wall. Its getting very hard to get a job as an American in the computer field. I have been the only American on my last 3 teams. Very large teams. I feel like a foreigner in my own country.
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Better off to give the menial jobs to the other countries rather than the high tech jobs. Code writers are a dime a dozen these days with most of the kids with a grade eight education. If we could ship our ditches to those countries we could have them hand dig our trenches too.
MS robs thee young kids of their higher education by taunting them with high paying money. At thirty years old when they can't write code for 80 hours per week they toss them back on the job market with no education tickets and nobody wants a burned out code writer with grade 12.
-------- "tiredofspam" wrote in message
I know. I worked for a company that was an early adopter of Indian labor. Back in 1986 they started.. I saw the writing on the wall. Its getting very hard to get a job as an American in the computer field. I have been the only American on my last 3 teams. Very large teams. I feel like a foreigner in my own country.
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Is that a bad thing? Many students get an education in a specialized field and never use it. They would be better off going to a trade school or still flipping burgers, just without the debt. They may lead happier and more productive lives that way.
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Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I understand your point completely. However, many (most?) people would prefer a choice. People are free to go to trade-school now if they prefer. It appears that the path of an HVAC-tech is paved with gold.
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On 7/22/12 10:41 PM, Bill wrote:

TN started a scholarship from lottery proceeds ironically called the "Hope Scholarship." I won't even get into the fact that lotteries never raise any money for schools, as they always promise to do. The money that does go from the lottery to schools actually just replaces what used to come out of a state's general fund, which now gets reallocated to something else. So not only do the schools no get any extra money, but the government now gets to waste even more tax payer dollars without any accountability.
The big problem with these scholarships is they end up dumbing down the entire college education. When this scholarship first came out, students had to have a certain gpa in high school (which was too low to begin with) to get the scholarship and had to keep a certain gpa to keep the scholarship. The first few years saw record numbers of students losing scholarship aide. So instead of accepting the fact that they probably set the bar way to low in giving out scholarships, they didn't want the program to look like a failure and they lowered the gpa needed to keep the scholarship.
This, along with other misguided educational policies in the US are resulting in a dumbing down of high school and college degrees to an eventual point at which a college diploma will be the equivalent of a 1960's high school diploma. At that point, in order for graduates to compete for good jobs, they will need a masters degree. The masters degree will be the new college diploma and since everyone is getting college paid for by someone else, meaning there is no personal sacrifice or penalty for failure, the bachelors degree will be looked at with no more esteem than a high school diploma is now.
Meanwhile, in China and India, 14 year-olds are learning calculus and organic chemistry.
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GA has a similar scholarship. It seems to work, though there isn't enough money to fund it 100% so it's means tested (translation: the middle class gets screwed).

The do raise money, just not enough to fulfill the promises of the politicians.

Politicians never worry about unintended consequences.

$1T is borrowed. True, that's tomorrow's problem not today's sacrifice.

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On 7/22/2012 11:18 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

They do that in the US too. Check the high school syllabus.
But I have a question for all of you guys.
Do you feel better after venting here?
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That's here NOW! There are certain cultures that don't care for the bachelors,the 2 you mentioned. They believe that the masters is important, the baccalaureate is just a step to the masters. The problem is that the masters doesn't make you smarter. I have seen quite a few masters who can't put things together. To me programming, system architecture, etc.. are like furniture or building a building, or car repair. You need to build the foundation and work from there. You don't put the top on the building and then build up to it from the ground...
Yet I see a lot of that from masters.. It's just another piece of paper. It's the person.. not the degree. I have seen people without degrees build better than people with. I have seen people with degrees do well. I have watched many PHds flounder. Absolutely no clue...

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On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 18:59:18 -0400, tiredofspam <nospam.nospam.com> wrote:

The most valuable degree you can get is the one from "Hard Knocks College" - and yet it has become almost obsolete in the job market.
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On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 19:38:55 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Not to small businesses, and by that, I mean from my size (1) to maybe 20 employees. I love people who can think on their feet helping me with tasks I can't do alone any more. I try to hire minorities, too. By that I mean single white guys like me. We're the last minority.
-- In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. -- Albert Camus
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On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 19:38:55 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

In today's job market, you have to be able to check off the appropriate boxes. I know a fellow that is presently out of work and is having a hard time finding new work for that reason.
He can out engineer most engineers in his field, but he does not have the piece of paper that says so. Years ago, you could get an interview and explain that to the guy doing the hiring. Now you fill out a form on a web page and come up short. In his mid-fifties, it will be tough for him.
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On 7/23/2012 9:46 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I think you can thank the excess number of lawyers for the fact that one the average Joe cannot find find a good job with out that college degree. It only makes sense with cover your bases by hiring those with a degree vs those with out a degree to help limit your liability should something go wrong and you end up in court.
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On 7/23/2012 6:38 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Exactly!
My son works for one of the Big 4 accounting firms. The local office recruits directly from UofH, Texas A&M, and UT. The latter are the much more prestigious of the 3. He went to UofH. Today the recruiters look more favorable at the recruits from the UofH because 95% of them work and go to school. They have more street smarts so to speak, they have the advantage of knowing what is expected in the real world.
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On 7/24/2012 8:51 AM, Leon wrote:

Not much has changed, depending upon the department, at UofH. Dad got his BS, and Masters in Geophysics there, working his way through; and my oldest sister likewise. My youngest went to summer school there in the last few years and found it much tougher than the small liberal arts university she attended full time in AR.
Parents in those days, at least around here, were not predisposed to pay for college at all. If you went, you mostly worked while attending.
I went to A&M because it was a state supported agricultural/engineering college and therefore inexpensive ... my first year, room and board, tuition, books, and laundry left me with $40 change to last the year after taking the $1000 I saved up from working in jr high, high school, and the summer before. As an Aggie Fish in the Corps, which was mandatory the first two years, it was pretty damned tough to spend the forty bucks in any event.
Just try that today ...
(Mom took pity and sent me a check for $5 in April of the second semester, bless her little pea picking heart) :)
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tiredofspam wrote:

I think there is some truth to that, in which case academia helps perform the screening. People reveal something of their general determination. Most (students) also probably learn how to be better communicators.
I have seen people without degrees

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On 7/23/2012 5:59 PM, tiredofspam wrote:

I think that because damn near every one graduating from HS at least starts college these days that the bachelors degree is so common place that it has little value over a HS diploma.
And I totally agree that a masters degree does not make you smarter, not even a doctorate makes you smarter. I will say that both make you more knowledgeable but that has little to do with being smart, something that you are born with.
But because of the belief that a college degree entitles you to a good paying job, HA HA, every one tries to gets that "expensive" degree and in many cases the cost of the degree eats up any advantage to having the degree.
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Leon wrote:

Someone (T. Huxley) said "Perhaps the most valuable result of all education is the ability to make yourself do the thing you have to do, when it ought to be done, whether you like it or not; it is the first lesson that ought to be learned; and however early a man's training begins, it is probably the last lesson that he learns thoroughly."
Someone else (A. Einstein, by one source) said "Education is what remains after you have forgetten everything you learned in school."
I will say: If I was hurt in an auto accident, I would rather a dumb but "trained" emergency technician find me than a smart street walker.
Bill

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On 7/24/2012 12:32 PM, Bill wrote:

And all this time I thought that was simply a result of mentally maturing.
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