Decline in craftsmanship

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Here's an interesting piece found in the online New York Times equating the business practices at HD to the general decline in craftsmanship in our country:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/business/what-happened-to-the-craftsmanship-spirit-essay.html?_r=1&hp
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On 7/21/2012 9:14 PM, Gramp's shop wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/business/what-happened-to-the-craftsmanship-spirit-essay.html?_r=1&hp
It was outsourced - to China.
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On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 19:14:29 -0700 (PDT), "Gramp's shop"

Remember that quote in Pogo "we have met the enemy and it is us".
Sometime in about the 60's or 70's, society decided that blue collar work was not as good as white collar and professions where you did not do that manual labor. College was more affordable and Dad, who worked on the line an a factory, was able to send one of his kids off to college.
Technology was starting to boom. Hey kids, become a computer programmer and you'll never have to clean under your fingernails again. Make lots more money than dad ever did down at the mill.
Cameras, stereo systems, Pong, and a Commodore 20 became affordable and it was imported, mostly from Japan. Big box store replaced the corner store and offered discounts. We like discounts. Oh, if I send my manufacturing off shore, I can offer discounts and sell cheaper too. Yay, now we get all that new technology cheaper than ever.
We want cheap. We demand cheap.
Hey, why is that factory torn down and another shopping mall going up? Great, it will have a big store that sells stuff from China.
Need a house? 0% down and low interest for the first five years. Sure, you can afford it and can re-finance later.
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Hmm, am I wrong, or did Home Depot become ubiquitous sometime after the '60s or '70s?
Perhaps college should be made more affordable. Perhaps professors should actually teach and student loans should be abolished (or at least greatly reduced)? Maybe get rid of scholarships, too.

We also demand good, if not cheap. That's something that went missing in the '70s and '80s.

Money is just about free now. What's that got us?
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snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:

What do you think they are doing? Times have already changed.
and student loans should be abolished (or at least greatly

May as well get rid of auto financing while you're at it. And mortgages too--they are evil!
If you wanted to improve the economics, you might have colleges screen students and turn away one they expect might not be as competitive following graduation. But that would not be very democratic or popular. However, that is similar to the way things are done in China, I believe.
Maybe students should talk to an advisor (perhaps mom or dad?) before they choose a college and a major? All 18 year-olds respect the opinions of their parents, don't they? Caveat emptor.
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Research. Writing proposals for research.

...and I thought you wanted to middle class to be stronger. Oh, well.

Following graduation? How about turning away those who can't even get there without dumbing down the entire system? Ramedeal reading in college?

Perhaps require an "employment 101" course. Though, if effective, it would dry up a lot of departments. The faculty wouldn't allow that to happen.
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snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:

the business practices at HD to the general decline in craftsmanship in our country:

That was an example of hyperbole--exaggerating your suggesting that student loans and scholarships should be abolished!
Oh, well.

I said "screen"! That means before admitting students. Phoenix, the online university, is an example of a fraud (from what I've heard).
How about turning away those who can't even get there

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the business practices at HD to the general decline in craftsmanship in our country:

Student loans should be abolished because they do exactly the opposite of what they're intended to do.

I can't help it if you can't follow along.

OK, I didn't understand your meaning. I'm certainly not against minimum standards but be prepared to be called a racist.
I don't put too much credence into stories about Phoenix. I haven't seen much information that didn't have an obvious axe to grind (i.e. don't know). OTOH, from what I gather, they do a good job of finding instructors who have real-world experience. I am more familiar with ITE (I think that's what it's called) or DeVry. From the people I've seen come out of there, it's a pretty good technical school.
How about requiring full disclosure; graduation and employment rates (within the field of study) at the university, college, and department levels? Publish it in every marketing blurb.
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snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:

the business practices at HD to the general decline in craftsmanship in our country:

That's a reasonable idea. Be forewarned that those rates are not automatically available. Graduates don't automatically keep colleges aware of what they are up to anymore than they keep the address on their driver's licences current. Note that a department have 40 student majors may only graduate 10 students a year or less. The results may not statistically significant and angle shooters would appear. For example, do students receiving "work-study" support count as employed? How about students who go on to graduate school?
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the business practices at HD to the general decline in craftsmanship in our country:

The information is fairly easily had, though. Employers go to the college for transcripts. A followup wouldn't be impossible. Even statistical information would be useful.

I can't parse this sentence.

Of course not. They're counted as continuing education, which in itself causes a problem with the disclosure.
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On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 18:37:29 -0400, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

More hammer. Appropriate in some areas, not appropriate in your hammer everything approach.

He follows along just fine. He's just disappointed in your same singular sweeping approach to every situation.
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The present system does not seem to be working well. Kids are graduating with huge dept and a Master's Degree in 8th century Lithuanian Art and the only work they can get is flipping burgers. Maybe some common sense would help too.
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graduating. These debt loads are ridiculous. They're only needed because these debts drive up the cost of education, in general.
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snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:

They do form an interesting part of the supply-demand equation. Cutting to the chase, if you remove student loans you'll have fewer colleges and fewer college students.
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On 7/22/2012 9:22 PM, Bill wrote:

Think????? :)
It's ridiculous--these kids are going through school living better than I did for probably 10 years after graduating. It's just stupidity and an absurd level of expectations of "need".
...

In particular the diploma mills would almost all entirely cease to exist; many exist only to milk that subsidized revenue stream.
The real schools will continue to exist; the numbers of students may drop some but there are other ways the deserving and dedicated can find to finance school as well as simply as noted above, dropping the level of expectation of living standards, etc. You don't _require_ a new Beemer and a 3-br apt and to spend every break somewhere exotic to get a degree.
--
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dpb wrote:

I think that more high school kids make the trip to Florida. It's not the college student who is working part time at close to minimum wage to help make ends meet.
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says...

It is around here.
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And the question then becomes whether the ones that survive will be the ones that provide the best education or the ones that are most effectively marketed and beancounted.
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J. Clarke wrote:

Good luck on coming to a concensus on what "best education" means!

If you are going to run a college, you can't afford to ignore the beans--or you won't have a college. Colleges have to pay heating bills too--and big ones!
The Internet will most-likely result in more education options in the marketplace. That comes with it's own set of issues, but I anticipate it could help lower the cost of tuition--maybe even at existing instituitions.

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