Cyclone dust collector kit now available

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BRuce wrote:

In my shop in the summer there is. Drywall on the bottom of the joists and 1/2" plywood on the top does a fair job of insulating. On a typical July day the shop is hot and muggy, but attic is like an oven.
-- Mark
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You need the cyclone kit, a blower housing (from me), an impeller 14" material-handling impeller from Sheldon's Engineering, a motor (from Electric Motor Warehouse, a dust bin (fiber barrel or make one from an air-tight plywood box with door and insert a polyethylene bin (22 gallon size $5 at Home Depot), plus some ducting and a motor starter/contactor with good overload/overcurrent protection device, and duct work. Also a good final filter or pair of filters (from Wynn Environmental. The details are on the budget-blower page at
http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworking/cyclone/budblower.cfm
Plan on spending $1100-1300 for a complete system, and do it right the first time. You won't regret it. It's a lot like that Crapsman 10" radial arm saw I bought in 1973 for $250 on sale and the Rockwell/Delta Unisaw I bought for about $1100 in 1979. The Unisaw was a much bigger bargain -- especially after I added my own "T-square" fence I built and welded myself and a nice table extension so I can cut 50" wide on it.
Clarke
Mark Jerde wrote:

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metal working tools (G) I hate working metal. bill sent me one he made. I still want to get a bigger blower on it.
--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
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Clarke --
    Could you delineate the cost differences, and performance differences, between your kit system and the Oneida 2 HP system?
    -- Andy Barss
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I prefer not to openly discuss my observations about this machine vs other products because if I divulge what makes this design better than theirs, especially in a public forum, that provides them with access to engineering and design expertise at no cost. It also tempts some companies whose scruples aren't stellar to find some excuse to try to shut me down by threats of lawsuits, and that's no exaggeration. I've seen it done in multiple instances to other people I know who were starting businesses in the woodworking field.
Bill Pentz did some evaluation work for Oneida, and he speaks well of them in comparison with some other popular brands, and they have a clean reputation, more than certain others I am aware of, but they have a somewhat different design philosophy from mine, which is what the world is all about anyway, so I'll leave it at that.
My objective was as still is to put a first-rate quality product on the market and let it speak for itself, rather than get into some kind of "Consumer Reports" comparison of products. Besides, when Consumer Reports has evaluated certain types of products in areas where I had extensive expertise, I found myself rarely agreeing with their methods or their conclusions.
It is helpful to be aware, when shopping as a consumer, that many major companies are critically dependent, for their financial survival, to keep consumers as ignorant as is humanly possible. This is especially true in banking and finance, in the sale and promotion of non-durable consumer goods (detergents, toiletries, cosmetics, nutrition, and many other areas), and, unfortunately in the field of machine and woodworking tools. It is often impossible to trust the "specifications" in a company's catalog, and anyone with experience in air handling can see that the promoter of a product is engaging in measurement techniques that cannot be independently validated and coming up with numbers that are physically impossible in a real-world, actual shop environment (I'm not referring to Oneida when I say this, nor any other specific company in particular, but as a general observation of companies whose principle market is not in commercial and industrial applications where savvy engineers can see right through their numbers with only minimal mental calculations.
To quote Bill O'Reilly of Fox News Channel, "I'm looking out for you." What others do I am not particularly interested in.
As for the kits I produce vs. Oneida, theirs is a 2-HP system. Mine uses a 5-HP motor. That should give a hint, at least on the surface. I also recommend a good quality NEMA-rated Size 1 starter/controller/overload protection device. That's because I'm looking out for you and don't want you to have a switch explode or find your shop on fire due to overloaded motor or circuitry. I also don't want you to have a "shocking" experience from improperly wired or improperly grounded equipment. That's why I added a page to Bill Pentz's site on motor protection and fire safety. It should be required reading for every shop owner:
http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworking/Cyclone/ClarkeMotors.htm
Clarke
Andrew Barss wrote:

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Clarke Echols wrote:

My "dream shop" has outstanding dust collection. In my mind, it has both a cyclone that is used while the tools are on and an air circulation system with basically the same components running most of the time. Both have a "forest" of pleated filters. <g> Is it possible both can be combined into one system? Can your design handle both? That is, if I open the blast gate to the appropriately-located ducts, how large a space will your design clean of dust in what timeframe?
I started college as a mechanical engineer but I switched to computer science before I really learned enough to ask this question intelligently.... I know a little about ASHRAE since I completed one semester of that stuff. I was <4 credits from an ME minor when a good job in CS took me away from the campus and my ME minor. ;-) Gotta follow the bucks! Slider-crank and Rankin Cycle be d*mned! <g>
-- Mark
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Unless you have an unusually large shop, just put a blast gate in a "Y" in one of the ducts and open it. My shop is about 25 x 30 feet with 8-foot ceiling. At 1200 CFM (being conservative here), that's a complete air change every 5 minutes. It won't take long to clean the air at that rate, even if you need it (which you might not -- at least not very often). That's my plan for cleaning welding smoke and other trash in the air, what little there is.
Just having the collector on normal tools I figure will drop dust in the air by at least 90-95% even without being particularly careful on the collection hoods. And with that kind of CFM, you could have a vacuum- cleaning hose and intake for vacuuming the shop, then use a compressed air gun to blow the dust off of benches and stuff to get it airborne so the collector can pull it in. Beats a bench brush any day. :-)
I know about college courses not matching the real world. I got an extended major in physics with my BA plus a minor in math and most of a minor in business, along with some speech classes, industrial arts, music, and the stuff you don't have time for in engineering school. Plowed through the academics of an MSEE at Colorado State University (didn't finish the tail-end stuff because I had a house to build for our growing family), got registered as a professional engineer in 1980 (a PE beats an MS any day of the week), but after 9 years of designing tooling for Hewlett-Packard, I went to marketing as a senior technical writer and learning-products engineer where I spent 20 years producing technical manuals and online help systems, 3/4 of that working with the HP-UX/Unix operating system. I am the principal author of "The Ultimate Guide to the Vi and Ex Text Editors" which was considered the best book on the subject in the entire industry for years. I also did some general contracting and consulting on the side, so I got a pretty broad range of experience, along with building a bus from scratch (as in "Greyhound" size/type) that's still waiting for me to get back to it. :-(
And yes, I was on the internet before AlBore, who supposedly invented it, even knew what it was. :-) I also told some of HP's marketing types, when they were discussing whether to call our computers "desktop computers" or "workstations", that they should coin and copyright the term "personal computer" before someone else does. Six months later, guess who... Then I told my boss once we should come out with a series of books called "Unix for Dummies", "Vi for Dummies", "Shell Programming for Dummies", etc., but he said it would violate the company's "image". How many yellow books for dummies have you seen? :-) :-) Dang, I get tired of being right.
Life's too short not to stretch one's interests...
Clarke
Mark Jerde wrote:

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Clarke,

With all due respect, what is to prevent Oneida, Woodsucker, Penn State and the others from purchasing one of your kits and reverse engineering it? Wouldn't you'd want to fire a preemptive strike and be the first to prove why your kit is better than their systems?

Fair enough, but I'm a curious sort and before I shell out $1300 for a cyclone I have to build versus one I can bolt to the wall, I need more data to analyze. I know that Ford and Chevy have different design philosophies, but they both use motors, transmissions, and brakes. It is in the analysis of the philosophical differences that allows me as a consumer to decide what is best for me. While your kit's performance sounds appealing, I can't afford to make a $1300 mistake.

Again, with all due respect, isn't this what you are doing by not posting comparative analysis?
This is especially true

I find this to be a little patronizing. These statements sound like you're not publishing your data for our own good. While some people are taken in by marketing blather, many of us can understand and differentiate between reality and bull$*!@.

Even though I'm not from Missouri, I do not know you. I appreciate the sentiment, but whenever someone tells me they're looking out for me, I instinctively grab my wallet and my balls. :-)
In closing, I don't think any of us want you to put everything on the table without protecting yourself. I've been in business and I know what is like to protect your intellectual property. But I also know there comes a time when being first outweighs the possible loss of a technological edge.
Regardless of your decision to publish your performance comparisons, I wish you well with your venture.
Regards, Rick Chamberlain
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wrote:

Bill O'Reilly of Fox News (the fair and balance News network) LIED! Can you really trust him?
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Clarke Echols wrote:

Sorry if this is on the site and I missed it.
Can a filter be mounted inside the cyclone to save space for those of us will small shops?
-- Mark
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wrote:

Oneida sells such a model. (It may be patented). It looks to me like one big disadvantage of that design is having to take the cone off to get to the filter. I can barely get to the cone of my cyclone!
<http://www.oneida-air.com/systems/1-2/1-2configs.htm
Bob S
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The cyclone works on the principle of centrifugal force. The dust is thrown to the outside of the cyclone where it follows the cone wall down to the dust-bin outlet at the bottom. Meanwhile, clean air is stripped from the inside of the vortex (whirlwind) inside and is pulled out the top center through the outlet tube.
A quality filter that traps 99.97% of the fine dust down to 0.3 microns in diameter (0.3 microns = 12 millionths of an inch) requires a very large surface area in order to pass large air volumes (the cyclone kit with recommended blower and filter packages can handle over 1400 CFM at typical shop real-world working conditions), and you cannot physically place real-world filters in the cyclone and get that kind of capability. The cyclone already removes as much as 54-15/16 gallons of sawdust out of 55 gallons (1 cup of fine dust left over to be trapped by the filters) from the air stream. You need large-area filters to get that last little bit and not get plugged with the fine dust too quickly while keeping static pressures down for better air volume which is the major key to effective dust elimination from the shop atmosphere.
You're going to have a tough time improving on this design because there is too much research and engineering that went into designing the product, on top of the research and engineering that was done by various industrial associations on cyclone design and operation before this one was developed. This product is not based on somebody tossing a fancy plastic lid on a trash can and calling it a "cyclone".
Clarke
Mark Jerde wrote:

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