Cyclone decision

Hello folks, Am planning on a new cyclone this spring. Trying to decide between three 2HP versions; Oneida, Penn State, and Grizzly. Any opinions? I am not brand loyal to anything. I just use what works. I pretty much have my piping plan worked out. The main tools we use are the bandsaw, lathe, and scrollsaw. Plus sanding our projects. Leaning towards the Penn State (bigger impeller). The Oneida seems pretty expensive (I know they help you plan etc but that part is pretty well done). Griz is unknown but I have several of their items and they work well for a fair price. Any info is greatly appreciated. Thanks a bunch, Guy
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On 29 Jan 2005 14:40:47 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote:

====================No actual advice ...(and I now use a 1 Hp Penn State DC dedicated to my planer and a 2 Hp Grizly for the rest of my tools...)..neither are cyclone units.
BUT... the Scrollsaw and the Bandsaw (if they produce as much sawdust as mine do are not machines that really need a big powerful DC.. especially a cyclone. And I personally have tried using a DC without much luck on my lathe ...all the shavings and dust hit me in the chest and I am not about to mount the DC port on my chest... Doing finishing sanding on the lathe (which I have to do because I am not that good with it) works great however...
Just my opinion..
Bob Griffiths
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On 29 Jan 2005 14:40:47 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote:

<-snip->
If you haven't already done so, I'd strongly recommend spending some time on Bill Pentz's site:
    http://billpentz.com//woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm
There is a lot of information to be found there - including some comments regarding commercial systems such as you mention.
Tom Veatch Wichita, KS USA
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On 29 Jan 2005 14:40:47 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote:

the last two are pretty low on the quality list. the first very spendy. I would look into building one or buying the kit far better and far less money. http://billpentz.com/Woodworking/Cyclone/CycloneKits.cfm plus you can use two cartridge filters for more airflow.
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Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
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snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote:

Check out http://billpentz.com//woodworkingcyclone.index.cfm .
I recently bought one of his machines. Well made & very cost effective.
Regards,
Dave Vermilyea
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BTW, how much did you spend for the whole project and if possible breakdown parts/price.
Let say if I have: 16/32 drum sander, 1-1/2hp TS, 14" BS and 15" thickness planer and only one of the machine operate at a time, how many hp or cfm do I need?
Thanks

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WD wrote:

As I recall, I spent approx $350 for the cyclone & blower, $160 for the impellor & approx $250 for the 5hp, compressor duty Leeson Motor. The price for the cyclone & blower is for the built up machine. if you prefer to do the work yourself, Bill Pentz has the machines available as kits.
Regards,
Dave
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My costs for the Pentz cyclone kit are very close to what Dave stated. Add to that expenses for ducting. I used 6" S&D thinwall PVC Pipe and fittings in an under floor installation for another couple of hundred US bucks.
As for the cfm requirements for the machines you list, I believe there is a pretty thorough discussion on Bill's website. I recall his recommendation of 800 cfm for the tablesaw but don't recall details for the other machines.
Tom Veatch Wichita, KS USA
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I have the Oneida 1-1/2 HP model and it works great. I have installed duct to all of my bigger machines and I us a a remote control. It makes for a very convenient setup. Mike

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that's a pretty small machine though. if you really want to get all of the dust from your machines 2hp 12" impeller dc is just pushing being enough. usually it takes two collection points on most machines to really catch the dust.
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Dear Guy,
When I was looking at acquiring the components of a D/C system, I searched this news group to access the "collective knowledge", then I took my best shot. I'd like to share my experience with you.
I have a basement shop and headroom is a consideration. I had thought about a D/C system, but it was a far-in-the-future purchase when both my wife and I had an adverse reaction to some wood I was cutting last fall and we decided to get the system ASAP. I had been pricing cyclones and I knew the Oneida was expensive. Also, I believe the Grizzly was too tall to meet my height requirements.
I called Penn State with the thought in mind that I would buy a roll-around DC with a canister filter and add a garbage can separator. I spoke at some length with Carl at Penn State, and, in the end, bought the Tempest Cyclone (12" impeller, 2hp) with the tall canister filters.
From the beginning, I had problems. Many, but not all of the problems resulted because Penn State cannot (or will not) package things to survive the shipping process.
Initial problems were:
1.. 5X4 piping reducer, squashed flat. 2.. Hoses squashed and kinked. 3.. One of the filter cartridges was deformed enough to be unusable. 4.. The fitting used to connect the filters to the fan discharge was clearly not well thought out. It looked to me to be one that was used for a different size connection and altered with a saw (but not de-burred). It had you tightening a hose on a steep tapered surface. 5.. The included wall mounting brackets were not included.
Penn State promptly supplied and/or replaced missing/damaged items but I found it really annoying.
There are several things with respect to the Penn State design that made assembly and installation more difficult than I thought was reasonable, for example:
1. You need to assemble the motor and blower assembly to the cyclone drum. This connection requires a seal, but Penn State thinks you should provide it. In my mind, this connection is at the greatest pressure differential between the DC system and your shop (thus it really affects efficiency) and they should give you a decent seal.
2. The system uses two cartridge filters for discharge. They are assembled with a top fitting (connects by hose to the fan discharge) and a canister on the bottom. Penn State's design calls for this all to be glued together so it's very hard to change any components. Also, you also have to cut a seven inch diameter hole in the canister lid.
3. The wall mounting brackets attach to the cyclone drum to the wall. The bolt hole pattern in the brackets and the cyclone are very different so there was some additional drilling.
Well, after a few weeks of parts going back and forth, my cyclone was up on the wall and running. Next I had to deal with piping. I initially bought 25' of 4" hose so I could get up and running with the thought in mind that I would be installing some permanent piping as time permits.
I had determined that I would use 5"diameter piping for my main manifold and then transition to 4" for my machine drops. Carl at Penn State was very helpful here. Also Penn State gives you a $50 ducting credit when you buy a cyclone, so that looked like a good way to go. I chose spiral piping for the 5" main and 4" S&D PVC for the machine drops. The spiral pipe is very nice but oh are those fittings expensive. I mean VERY expensive.
OK, here I go. Spiral pipe from Penn State and PVC from Home Depot (and a few fittings from McMaster-Carr). I also decided to add the Long Ranger system that has micro switches on blast gates that turns on the DC when you open the gate. (Bought from Penn State, natch).
The Long Ranger system presented a few problems. Neither the 220v relay box nor the blast gates had any way to mount them in a fixed position. I epoxy-on'd flanges to the relay box, but the blast gates were more of a problem. If you attach a hose to both sides, then the gates are too floopy to be constantly pulling and pushing to open and close them. I wound up by attaching at least one side of all the gates to a rigid pipe. This is no mean feat since the diameters of the 4" spiral pipe, 4" hose, 4" PVC and 4" blast gates are all different. I made adapters, but they were a pain in the ass.
Well, I started in the fall, then Thanksgiving came, and Christmas, and work and some illness... you know the story. Ok, middle of January, I am all piped in and things are good. I have the DC system piped to my jointer, planer, table saw, band saw, and in the hopefully not-too-distant future, my miter saw. And it runs well, picks up most of the dust from everything (except the table saw, which is an old Walker-Turner contractor saw that I have to modify for better dust collection).
Oh boy, now I am in full swing. I spend about two full days working on turning rough sawn maple into a crib for my new grandson, and I start with DC problems. It starts by having the DC blow the circuit breakers. The motor is really hot. I let it cool over night and it starts again the next day, but makes a terrible noise. I call Penn State and ask to speak to Carl. He is no longer there. I speak to Doug, who is nice and he says to send him my motor and fan and he will check it out. I really don't relish dis-assembling my system, but I can't live this way. I told him I would use the system over the weekend (had to finish the crib) and send it out today. (I really don't know how I'm gonna pack it, a 2 horse motor with stuff hangin' off.)
Well I took my system apart and then I took the back off the motor. The set screw that holds the motor's internal fan impeller was gone and the impeller was free spinning. Well that accounts for the noise and heat build-up, but I'm worried that my motor was damaged by all the hot running. Doug at Penn State agreed to send a replacement motor n/c and I will send back the original after it arrives. Good service from Penn State, still this shouldn't have happened. And man, what a pain in the ass to take everything apart to service the motor.
Perhaps some of this is my fault. I have the cyclone installed in the basement so the motor sits between two first floor joists and can be accessed only by taking everything down off the wall. Still, the motor set screw should be locked in to give more than a few hours of operation.
It may be useful to mention other dealings with Penn State. I also bought an air cleaner from them. Two additional control units and one full replacement later, everything is working fine. I'm not sure whether to blame Penn State for poor packing, or UPS for rough handling (I saw the driver kick the first air cleaner out of the truck).
This may be more info than you wanted, but it is the kind of info I would have appreciated when I was still looking. Again, Penn State replaced broken things promptly, but it would have been better not to have to hassle with that at all. I wonder if I really saved any money by not considering Oneida.
Bill Leonhardt
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Bill Leonhardt wrote:

I also recently purchased the Tempest Cyclone 2hp (110v/220v) with the 12" impeller and the tall canisters (filter down to .5 microns). I found it packaged quite well and everything was in good shape with no pieces missing, so perhaps Bill has some pretty rough handling UPS drivers.

was
used for a

It
I agree here. I ditched the connector that Penn State sent and made my own. A round piece of plywood with a circle cut from the middle for a piece of 5" stove pipe. Silicon the stove pipe into the hole, then silicon it to the top of the filter. Use a hose clamp to clamp the hose from the fan discharge to that pipe, and you're set.

cyclone
should
I agree here too, but again I just spread some silicon (Penn State included a tube of it) around before pressing these two pieces together, and it seems to work just fine.

and a

glued
have to

He's right, but for me so far it hasn't been a concern. Cutting the hole in the canister lid is no big deal...just get a hacksaw blade for a jig saw (it doesn't have to be a precise, perfectly round hole) to cut through the thin metal lid.

wall.
different so

My bolt holes aligned just fine. YMMV if you want to turn the cyclone so that the intake/outtake are positioned such that the bolts that hold the cyclone together don't line up with the holes in the mounting brackets.

that I

I just ran 6" stove pipe and sealed it up with tape & silicon caulk. Forget about the $50 coupon, because as Bill mentioned, the price of the Penn State (and most others too) fittings & pipe will soon eat that up and it'd cost you more than buying stove pipe and/or PVC pipe from your local hardware store.
Before going with the 6" duct (not sure how much 6" helps with a 5" intake), I measured the amp of the unit running without any ductwork at all, and with the 12" impeller it should basically be impossible to burn this motor up (wide open it didn't draw it's rated current - a larger impeller would increase it's draw) . There are some enhancements that can be made to these systems to help them draw more air (and current - see Bill Pentz's site mentioned previously) to help optimize your air volume/current draw (install a neutral vein, larger impeller, etc). I haven't tried any of these with mine...yet.

The set

impeller
Boy I hope that doesn't happen to mine.

the
I suspect that you'd have this problem with most any cyclone unit mounted this way, but I could be wrong. Mine's mounted the same way. Charlie
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