Cross Grain Glueing on Small Boxes

I haven't made many small wooden boxes (ie., Recipe Boxes, Jewelry Boxes etc.) I am starting a jewelry box for my daughter. I can't see anyway of not glueing the lid top to the four lid sides without glueing across the grain. Can someone tell me the rule here.

Reply to
Tom H
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Dado it in and use no glue in the dado. Like the panel in a raised panel door.

Reply to
Leon

Tom, I can't tell you a rule, but I've managed to get away with cross-grain gluing where the cross-grain part is up to about 6 inches wide. I tried it once on a panel about 24 inches wide and the results were disastrous. I'm sure the answer will vary with species and humidity swing.

DonkeyHody "Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from poor judgement."

Reply to
DonkeyHody

I can't speak with authority on the matter, but I can tell you what I would do... I'd figure a jewlery box lid was rather small (maybe

9"x12"?) and cross-grain gluing would matter little here. I would also use polyurethane glue as it's tougher than regular wood glue.
Reply to
Joe Barta

Like Leo said, make a floating panel out of both the top and bottom. If you have a bandsaw, you can make the top and bottom match. I usually leave about 1/16 inch gap to account for wood movement across the cross grain, and less than that for long grain. For panels around 16 inches, I will leave 1/8 inch. robo hippy

Reply to
robo hippy

I have a question for you. You say that in this instance you would be concerned about cross-grain gluing and would recommend a floating panel. Fair enough.

Let's assume that if the jewlery box were 1" square, you would NOT make a floating panel and just glue the top on. Given that, it stands to reason that somewhere between 9" or so and 1", is your belief that cross-grain gluing ceases to be a problem.

Can you tell me where that point is? At what length do you believe it ceases to become a problem as a practical matter?

Joe Barta

Reply to
Joe Barta

May I be so bold as to suggest Box Making basics out of this group?

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have adapted a few of his designs to my needs. He covers the basics -- =

and the complexities -- very well.

It really is quite good. Without knowing your intended construction=20 style it is a little tough to make a suggestion.

If this book or another good one doesn't answer your questions in a few=20 minutes -- I'll eat the front cover -- as long as I can add salt and pepp= er.

--=20 Will R. Jewel Boxes and Wood Art

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power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20 who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

Reply to
WillR

"Tom H" wrote

Hardly for beginners, but for the time being there happens to be a drawing that includes a panelled lid for a jewellery box at:

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'll need to download a pdf file, viz:

Drawings for Delving Into Detail, Issue 163

Jeff G

Reply to
Jeff Gorman

AFAIK there is no written rule however the answer to that question is more dependent on climate conditions and the variation of those climate changes. Basically, with experience you will find a rule of thumb that you are comfortable with.

Reply to
Leon

Joe (and Tom), Both of you asked essentially the same question, but I notice that nobody has given you a definitive answer. That's because no one can, given the broad scope of the question.

All wood shrinks and swells with changes in moisture content which is driven by relative humidity. All wood moves more tangetially (around the circumference) than radially (from the center of the tree out) but hardly at all lengthwise. So, a flatsawn board will change more than a quartersawn board of the same species. Then, some species change dimensions more than twice as much as others.

And we haven't even addressed the question of how much change in relative humidity you expect to see. Some of our houses see huge seasonal variations in relative humidity, and some stay nearly the same year round.

Then there's the question of glue. Some glues will allow a little "creep" without failing, while others hold fast until the wood splits.

The folks at the USDA Forest Products Lab are trying to interject some science into our art of working with wood. You can get coefficients of expansion for different species and other good information here:

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this informations still doesn't tell you how much movement a particular species will tolerate before it splits or buckles when constrained by being glued to another piece with the grain running crossways.

One of the things that makes woodworking interesting to me is that it still remains somewhat of a black art, subject to many variables imposed by the woodworking gods that be.

DonkeyHody "I'd rather expect the best of people and be wrong than expect the worst and be right."

Reply to
DonkeyHody

MORE INFORMATION:

The top in question is 6.75 x 11.75. The wood 1/2" is quarter sawn cherry.

Reply to
Tom H

I would say that for a box 2 inches wide, I wouldn't worry much about wood movenent. Above 4 inches I would. I find it easier to make floating panels than gluing up a solid flat piece with 4 sides glued onto it. Make your 4 sides perfect, and then make the floating panel. It doesn't have to be a perfect fit. robo hippy

Reply to
robo hippy

Tom -- the best advice you have been given is a floating panel...

See:

2nd and third boxes
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this one...
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at the views and you will see what people mean by a floating panel..= =2E

Get the book I mentioned earlier and it will explain a "floating panel"=20 It will save you a lot of time -- but even a bad book on jewel box=20 making should have a few pictures and diagrams to make the concept clear.= =2E.

Groove in the inside frame edges... Tongue on the edges of the lid -- NO =

GLUE on the tongue or the groove...

Make the bottom the same way. Cut a 1/8" to a 1/4" groove in the bottom=20 of the four box sides -- insert the bottom panel during gluing.

The inserted panel should float (slop around a tich -- not a tad --=20 that's too much) -- or have a spot of glue at the middle point of the=20 long grain direction to direct wood movement to the edges...

All explained with diagrams in a good book -- better than most sex ed=20 books anyway.

--=20 Will R. Jewel Boxes and Wood Art

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power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20 who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

Reply to
WillR

Thanks for all the good advice. I take in all into consideration as I put pencil to paper. Tom H

Reply to
Tom H

Well, I'm going to go against the common convention here and say glue it up. You're only going to be gluing across the width, 9" or so. In fact, I've done so with many small boxes without 1 failure:

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Reply to
Larry Bud

Tom, Given that information, I think I'd probably take the chance and just glue it on, assuming you simply don't want the look of a floating panel. Consider taking your box pieces parts into the house for several days (longer if you have time) before glue-up. Keep it in the house except when you take it out to the shop to work on it. That should get them pre-shrunk to somewhere close to their ultimate dimensions, and hopefully prevent any future problems.

DonkeyHody "Even an old blind hog finds an acorn every now and then."

Reply to
DonkeyHody

Relatively new to this stuff myself...I figure the more forgiving my glue is, the better off I am. Can you give me some examples of the more forgiving types?

And for that matter, can you steer me away from the less-forgiving while you're at it??

Right now I use TB III.

Build mostly furniture...case goods, tables, etc. No chairs, no cabinets. All hardwoods, mostly cherry.

Thanks in advance.

Reply to
wood_newbie

First the disclaimer. I've never done any controlled experiments. I've tried this and that over the years, but conditions varied too much to be sure what caused what.

Life is full of compromises and Titebond II has seemed to have the best blend of features I need for most applications. I haven't tried Titebond III yet, but I'm sure it's good too. Titebond in general has a good reputation among the group.

I think it's generally accepted that yellow wood glues allow a little creep without failure and that poly glues such as Gorilla Glue are more "brittle" for lack of a better word.

That's not to say poly glue is junk; I use it in some applications, and it has never failed me. But it's certainly messy and hard to clean up, not to mention more expensive.

In general, I'd prefer to design for wood movement instead of depending on glue creep to save me. I was just making the point that many factors influence what you can get by with in cross-grain glueing and what works under one set of circumstances may fail under another. It's hard to make hard-fast rules without adding a lot of conditions.

If you are having success with Titebond III, I see no reason to change.

DonkeyHody "We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom that is in it - and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid again---and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold one anymore." - Mark Twain

Reply to
DonkeyHody

I sorta figured the exact opposite. Polyurethane glue after it's cured feels a little flexible and wood glue feels hard. Maybe I'm interpreting that wrong... or maybe I should just shut up and sit down.

Personally I LOVE Gorilla Glue. The stuff is the most amazing glue in the world.

Reply to
Joe Barta

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