Coping: A lost art?

[Frank Nakashima]

I Am Not A Lawyer

[Frank Nakashima]

[Scott Cramer]

On 19 Sep 2003, Art Todesco spake unto rec.woodworking:

Coping is cutting the profile of a molding onto the abutting piece. When the two pieces are fitted together, it is indistinguishable from a mitered joint. When a mitered joint shrinks with lower humidity, the joint opens up. When a coped joint shrinks, it is much less obvious.

[Frank Nakashima]

They're also useful because the joint doesn't need to be 90 degrees. If the angle is acute or obtuse, the joint will still look "closed".

[Morgans]

It is reasonable to expect workman-like product. He should do it right, or pay for damaged materials and leave. He should eat the price of extra material.

-- Jim in NC

[Morgans]

Bull. No journeyman carpenter would consider using miters. That is totally amateuristic, or lower.

-- Jim in NC

[jstp]

Means "I Am Not A Lawyer", so not a "legal" opinion.

[IDontThinkSo]

I'm a Trim carpenter to trade, and as far as I'm concerned all joints (base, crown, mouldings etc) should be coped, But having said that sometimes if you pay 50c a foot thats what you will get. Not nowing what he is charging it's hard to say how he should be doing it. But again if you think the joints look crappy, then maybe he's just not good at what he's doing.

[Stormin Mormon]

I think that detail work is rapidly becoming a lost art.

In my case, I have to go to a psychiatrist to learn to cope. I mean, life is so rough. (ha-ha)

[Jeff Cochran]

Assuming a true 90 degree corner, and a foam or otherwise stable material, a mitered joint in baseboard may look fine. Locally, painted joints are almost always mitered for speed and since they'll be caulked. That and baseboards don't show as often as crown joints, especially outside crown joints (my personal problematic joint, always takes three or four tries...)

I don't completely buy into the wood movement argument as much, I've seen bad coped joints from separation as often as bad mitered ones from separation. And I've seen a whole lot of bad coped joints because somebody got the trim too short during the coping process.

Coping takes time. Unless a workman is getting paid for the time, he's not going to take it.

Jeff

[jhmmwoodman]

At least not right away, even WITH spot-on miters. Wait until the seasons change!

Michael Helms Mountaineer Millworks Weddington, NC remove "nogoons" from email for replies

[Morgans]

He wouldn't be working for me, and I would not take a job that demanded such shortcuts.

I teach carpentry. Guess what my students learn.

-- Jim in NC

[Robert Allison]

Only one way of doing things? I also taught trim carpentry and I taught both ways, because their are situations for both. How did they cope outside corners?

Perhaps if you don't know what you are doing, a mitered joint may look bad after a while, but I have mitered joints in my parents home that I did back in 1968 and they still look fine. And thats in a house with no air conditioning in Brownsville, Texas. Try finding a place with greater humidity changes than that.

I almost always cope corners, because I do mostly stain grade work, and to me, coping is as easy if not easier than mitering. It just takes an extra step. But please don't try to instruct me that there is only one way to do something,...your way. I have been in this business too long to believe that.

A good carpenter can make either joint look and last just as long and as good. I know this from experience. The problem is, there aren't that many good carpenters anymore, if there ever were that many.

[Mike Dembroge]

I did my kids room a couple of years ago and it has a moulding around the base, a chair rail, then a moulding around the top (not crown ). There were

17 "inside" joints in that one room. I coped them all and got to where I could to one in about 5 minutes per. It seems harder at first, but whenever I do miters, I always end up sneaking up on them which takes for ever. I still can't simply measure a miter cut and cut it dead on. I have to cut it a hair long, then sneak up on it.

It's always been my understanding that the main advantages to coping over miters are:

1. The work for corners that are not exactly at 90 degrees.
2. The joint doesn't spread apart when you nail it to the wall. I still don't know how you'd miter an inside corner and nail it without it spreading apart.

As far as the expansion/contraction issues to humidity, I'm not understanding now one would be better than the other. The wood will expand the same either way. No?

Mike Dembroge

[Buck Turgidson]

I mastered coping after wasting about 2 feet of molding by practicing. Not sure why a pro can't do it, unless he is just in a hurry.

After contracting for a lot of renovations this year (windows, siding, skylights) I am convinced that there are very few craftsmen left, just employees of companies whose only concern is billing jobs.

I have decided in the future that, where possible, I'll just buy the tools, practice, and do it myself.

[Jeff Cochran]

You might not. The realities of construction might make you ineligible for some jobs.

Hopefully both coping and mitering.

Keep in mind that a lot depends on the area of the country as well. Locally, shrinkage is often less of a problem than in northern climates with a heating season. I'm looking at the original trim molding in my house right now, all mitered, no cracks, all done in

1954.

Jeff

[Jeff Cochran]

That's actually a good point. If mitered joints look crappy then there's no guarantee the coped ones would be any better. The workman may just be low quality or inexperienced at trim carpentry.

Jeff

[Todd Stock]

[GeeDubb]

I've seen this happen with coped joints, too. Looks just as bad.

Gary (speed coper )

[Tom Watson]

Mitering rather than coping the baseboard is a cheap way of going about things but might not be considered "wrong".

If the guy was hired as the low bidder and there's no specs written into the contract you may not have much of an argument. You would have a right to complain about the quality of the mitered joints.

A first rate coping job takes a little bit of thought. I usually run my squared end pieces on the most viewed wall of the room and then run the coped pieces onto these. This way, if the wood contracts too much, the crack line will not be as obvious to those using the room.

I also usually run a three piece base. The baseboard is most often a one by six and this gets butted. The cap can be one of several kinds of profile and it is coped. The cap can follow the dips and dives of the wall better than a solid base can. The bottom is usually a shoe or quarter round molding and this is also coped. The baseboard should be back primed and should be applied 'belly out', so that the top and bottom edge of the baseboard contacts the wall solidly.

Another thing to consider in running baseboard is the kind of nailing that you have. I always check the stud layout and make sure that I have good nailing. Too many guys use the air nailer and simply oppose the angles of the nails - but too many of the nails are in the wall covering rather than the studs. The baseboard should be nailed through the top edge, so that the cap will cover the nails. It should be nailed at the bottom so that the shoe or quarter round will cover the nail but the nails should not be on the same stud, in order to reduce the possibility of cracking the baseboard during dry spells. The shoe or quarter round should be nailed to the floor so that the baseboard can expand and contract behind it without cracking. However, if you have a hardwood floor, you must angle the nail so that it does not penetrate the flooring.

Also, the inside corners often have to be scraped out in order for the baseboard to get tight into the corner. Drywall guys often leave the inside corners with too much mud in them and, if the situation is not corrected, there will be gaps that allow for more wood movement than the joint can tolerate.

The outside corners may have to be tuned up as well. Less skilled drywall finishers will leave a hollowed area from the point of the metal corner to the un-mudded field of the wall. This will create a gap.

On runs greater than the length of the molding available (usually over sixteen feet) the joints should be mitered, glued and pinned. The outside miters should be glued and pinned. If the guy tells you that end grain gluing doesn't hold up, go on to the next guy. The glue is used to slow down the absorbtion of moisture into the endgrain. The inside joints have glue applied to the end grain for the same reason.

If the trim is pre-finished, you might want to ask how many different colors of putty will be used to fill the nail holes. If the guy looks at you funny, or says "one", go on to the next guy. I use a minimum of three putty colors on a clear finished job.

You can see that a mechanic who takes all of this into consideration is going to take a lot longer to do the job than a run and gun sort of guy. That translates into more money.

On those rare occasions that I am called out on a competitive bid, I show the customer my specs and ask that everybody else bid to those specs. That sometimes chases off the lowballers.

Regards, Tom Tom Watson - Woodworker Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania