Conv to 220?

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On Wed, 25 May 2005 00:29:41 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:
[snip]

I know that, Doug.

That's why they invented wire nuts. While the detachable cord doesn't need to meet the same wire size requirements as the fixed wiring, I personally would be concerned with a fault that fails to trip the breaker until there is damage to the pigtail. But that's just me operating with 33+ years of experience in the aerospace/tactical missile business where fail-save considerations and Murhpy's law rule. [g]

Uh huh. Then there's the guys who add an outlet to the saw circuit for a work light and to run the dust collector.
Regards,
Wes
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Then why did you suggest replacing it?
[snip]

That would be a problem, *if* it happened. But the problem is with the installation of that outlet, not with the wiring of the circuit for the table saw.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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You shouldn't say that! A bunch of morons will tell you that the breaker is there to protect the supply wiring and not the item plugged into it; and since the breaker is appropriate to the supply wiring, there is no reason to change the breaker.
Why they wouldn't also want to protect the item plugged into it, when they can do so for the price of a breaker, is totally beyond me. Admittedly it is not a question of code requirements; just common sense.
Incidently, the third conductor on the cables to my dryer and stove is an "uninsulated neutral". Looks like a ground to me; but I guess it works the same regardless of what you call it.
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Everyone's out of step but you, eh? You just keep living down to your billing.

Where do you find the 1/10 A breakers to protect your light bulbs? Where do you get the A breakers to protect your clock radio? Where did you find a panel that would accommodate all of those little breakers (must be a half a hundred or more in an average house)? I assume from your reasoning above that you would want to protect all your low current devices plugged into your massive 15A and 20A circuits, "for the price of a breaker."

And meets code (by virtue of grandfathering) but wouldn't in a new installation since the last few years.
--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
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wrote:

No, just about 4 morons. If I was in step with them I would really worry.

Damn, you are incredibly stupid. Why would you make such silly assumptions otherwise?
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This, coming from the guy who, just in the last month, has: a) claimed that it was nearly impossible to get a fatal shock from 60Hz 120VAC b) admitted to working on branch circuits without verifying that power was off c) advised connecting an appliance equipment ground conductor to the *neutral* of the circuit supplying it d) advised connecting both legs of a multiwire circuit to a single pole duplex breaker.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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That's true, whether you know it or not.
And you say you're not reading my posts...

I suppose, then, that you have your alarm clock plugged into a circuit that's protected by a 1-amp fuse?

More evidence of your unsuitability for giving electrical advice.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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You gotta love the electrical question threads. Running buddies LRod and Miller get into a bitch slapping-ego fest-I gotta have the last word flame exchange with Toller where insults fly like the sparks from a wiring job that followed their collective advice. A consistent theme is that one or the other is giving dangerous advice, and usually ends with someone swearing to plonk the other forever. Usually when the fur stops flying someone like Wes drops in to correct everyone with some solid and sage advice, leaving the OP wondering who to believe and wondering how all this debate got started in the first place "geeze, all I asked wuz if I could run my saw from the old dryer wiring."
I love the wreck.
Mutt
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ROTFL... unfortunately, Wes doesn't have a very good handle on it either, but at least his errors fall on the side of excessive caution. Toller, OTOH, is actively dangerous when he gives out electrical "advice", which is why LRod and I keep slapping him. In alt.home.repair, just in the last month or so, he told one poster to install his range hood with the equipment ground connected to the circuit neutral, advised another to connect a multiwire branch circuit to the two poles of a duplex 120V breaker, and claimed that it's nearly impossible to receive a fatal shock from 60Hz 120VAC.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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On Wed, 25 May 2005 13:20:40 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

Not taking sides in this tar baby punching contest, but you're now worried about connecting "ground" to "neutral"? [g]
How come when I suggest this is something best avoided, I'm excessively cautious? Maybe so... I wouldn't rely on a Sawstop either.
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Two separate issues.
In the stove-cum-tablesaw circuit thread, we are discussing connecting a pure 240V device (two hots and a ground, no neutral) to a circuit that has three conductors. You claim, utterly without foundation, that to do so is incorrect.
In the other case, someone was asking how to properly connect his stove, or range hood, I forget which - and toller told him to connect the green wire from the appliance (i.e. the equipment ground) to the circuit *neutral* _despite_ the OP having quoted the manufacturer's instructions saying to connect it to *ground*.

If you don't see that these are two separate issues - and *why* - you probably shouldn't be giving out electrical advice *either*.
In the first case, there is no neutral in the proposed circuit; in the second case, there *is* a neutral *and* an equipment ground, and we have an ignoramus who says it's ok to interconnect them.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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On Wed, 25 May 2005 16:17:40 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

Sorry. My tongue-in-cheek eluded you.
*If* the OP is absolutely, positively sure that the line in question travels unbroken back to the service panel with no other loads attached, then he can wrap some green tape around the white wire at both ends and call it equipment ground. If I had personally wired this circuit and knew this to be the case, that's what I would do. Otherwise, I would make no such assumption without further detective work. That was the point I was trying to make in the first place; until you know for sure, it's a "neutral."
But since neither of us has provided our credentials that denote expertise in the field, I submit that our advice is equally suspect.
I have had my say and will sign off now and go back to the shop and see if my shellac flakes have dissolved.
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The Dewalt has a 1-3/4 HP TEFC induction motor convertible to 220. So the 20A socket/plug with 12 gauge wire should work.
I am absolutely sure the circuit comes directly from the service panel. One thing I did notice was the outlet is says 50A, but the breaker is definitely 40A. One of the posts mentioned subpanels. This circuit is in a subpanel technically. By subpanel I mean that the circuit is in the original main panel. The house service was upgraded for an addition prior to me owning the house. A new panel was installed and the original main panel became a subpanel (I think I as saying that right). Anyway the 40A breaker supplies the outlet approximately 8 ft away from the panel. There is nothing else connected to this circuit. I don't know the gauge of the wire, but it if a fat sucker. Since I installed the gas line 20 years ago, the prior owner could have only used electric. So the circuit was installed in the early 60's.
Thanks for all the responses. I think I know what to do now.
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very_dirty snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

That being the case - in order to do this safely: a) the subpanel must have a separate grounding bus bar... b) ... which must be connected to the ground or neutral bus in the main panel c) ... and must NOT be connected to the neutral bus in the subpanel d) and the grounding conductor of the circuit must be connected to the *ground* bus in the subpanel.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Two questions:
Can I check by removing the panel covers and checking that the connections match your above safety list?
Is your list the proper way it should have been done when the service was upgraded? (I have no reason to believe it wasn't)
Thanks for your help.
Dave
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very_dirty snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

...
Yes (to both).
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very_dirty snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

Yep.
Yep.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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very_dirty snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

You know Dave, seeing that you are talking about just an 8ft run to the existing range receptacle and sounds like not far from there to your saw, I would be inclined just to go into the panel disconnect and remove the existing range circuit - replace the breaker with the needed 20A - 2pole 240V and put a new run of 12AWG 2+gnd to a 20A receptacle at the saw - job done. I believe you are required to have an inspection.
Do not leave the disconnected cable inside the panel. It must be removed from the panel but you could leave it tacked up nearby for a possible future. If there is truly no ground in this cable it likely is likely of little use for code compliance in future.
An alternate if you think you may have more 240V loads could be to use the existing 40A breaker and supply a small sub to provide multiple branch circuits, 120 or 240, for your workshop.
Ed
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On 25 May 2005 12:20:26 -0700, very_dirty snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

Okay. If this retrofit was done correctly, the neutral and ground bus bars in the "old" (now sub) panel were separated. Your (saw circuit) neutral wire connects to the now separate neutral bus bar and that bus in turn is wired to the common neutral-ground bus in the new service panel. This point is the earth ground reference.
*All* of the neutral currents from the "old" panel are now conducted by the one neutral wire back to the new panel where the wire connects to earth. So your circuit *is not* the only thing on this neutral conductor. Much of the rest of your house is a common load.
Now I don't know how far apart these panels are. They might be bolted together for all I know, in which case there is essentially no issue. However, if they are separated some distance then there will be some I^2 * R voltage drop in the neutral wire connecting the panels. If the loads on the two phases are split reasonably well, then the neutral current should be small. However, a major fault on some circuit can drive the current very high until a breaker opens. This will yank the neutral to some potential further above ground. If you are clamped onto your saw at the time with your feet on damp concrete, who knows what will happen.
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Interesting, but irrelevant - for safety, and Code compliance, this conductor *must* (as I have noted in an earlier post) be moved to the *grounding* bus in the subpanel. Once that is done, none of the considerations you give here apply.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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