...
That's why I suggested the pigtail solution --
If it were actually my shop, I'd probably have already run dedicated circuits for the stationary tools rather than trying to use this one, but OP's situation may not be convenient.
I know that the neutral and grounding conductor are tied together at the service entrance. That *does not* mean that a grounding conductor and neutral are at the same potential anywhere else.
This was true even in a clothes dryer or electric range, where lights, motors, timers, etc ran from one phase to neutral. Admittedly these load currents are small, however, in the strictest sense, there is a voltage drop in the neutral between the load and the service panel. Therefore, a non-current carrying grounding conductor and the neutral have different potentials at the load end.
Unless there is some other load on the same circuit, something that you do not know.
By your reasoning, we can just eliminate grounding conductors; after all, the neutral is grounded at the service entrance. Tie it to the frame of your table saw and sit back and hope that nothing goes wrong.
If the National Fire Protection Association thought that what you say is true, I doubt that they would have made the NEC change that now requires four wires, two phases, neutral and grounding conductor.
Not at all.
Perhaps I could have been clearer. Once the stove/dryer is disconnected none of what you say applies. Moreover, the OP said the stove in use was gas, therefore there was nothing connected. Consequently there are no 120V load currents in that line. Until there is a load on that circuit that uses the third wire as a neutral it is as proper an equipment ground as you could wish.
Unless the panel is a subpanel. Then you need to make sure the ground wire is attached to the ground bus. You are aware that some jurisdictions have the main breaker at the meter and that what most of us would consider the main load center (breaker panel) in the basement/utility closet is actually a subpanel.
Since a stove or dryer is on its own breaker, and since in this case the stove is not connected, we DO know there is no other load on the circuit.
That's not at all what I was saying or even implying. There was no stove connected. Therefore, there is no current flowing in the grounding wire (it is NOT a neutral).
If you want to read that into my post, enjoy yourself.
See below. We may have to add a name to the list.
I know that, Doug.
That's why they invented wire nuts. While the detachable cord doesn't need to meet the same wire size requirements as the fixed wiring, I personally would be concerned with a fault that fails to trip the breaker until there is damage to the pigtail. But that's just me operating with 33+ years of experience in the aerospace/tactical missile business where fail-save considerations and Murhpy's law rule. [g]
Uh huh. Then there's the guys who add an outlet to the saw circuit for a work light and to run the dust collector.
Regards,
Wes
Robatoy wrote in news:design-C19D38.14545824052005 @news.bellglobal.com:
Interesting. I was of the opinion that you were practically in the spray from Niagra Falls, and hence, massive hydorelectric facilities.
Next thing, you'll be telling me you have no igloos and sled dogs. ;-)
Patriarch
I assume this is from Doug, the alpha jerk...
I can't see what you say because I block your posts. And if I happened to agree with anything you said, there would be no reason to post anything at all.
You shouldn't say that! A bunch of morons will tell you that the breaker is there to protect the supply wiring and not the item plugged into it; and since the breaker is appropriate to the supply wiring, there is no reason to change the breaker.
Why they wouldn't also want to protect the item plugged into it, when they can do so for the price of a breaker, is totally beyond me. Admittedly it is not a question of code requirements; just common sense.
Incidently, the third conductor on the cables to my dryer and stove is an "uninsulated neutral". Looks like a ground to me; but I guess it works the same regardless of what you call it.
Everyone's out of step but you, eh? You just keep living down to your billing.
Where do you find the 1/10 A breakers to protect your light bulbs? Where do you get the ¼ A breakers to protect your clock radio? Where did you find a panel that would accommodate all of those little breakers (must be a half a hundred or more in an average house)? I assume from your reasoning above that you would want to protect all your low current devices plugged into your massive 15A and 20A circuits, "for the price of a breaker."
And meets code (by virtue of grandfathering) but wouldn't in a new installation since the last few years.
Duane,
Thanks for the response. So, by pigtail you mean us a male plug that matches the 40A outlet, connect a sufficient gauge wire, the connect a 240v
20A female at the other end?Dave
However, it *does* mean that the conductor that had previously been used as the neutral for the electric stove *can* be used as the equipment ground for the table saw.
That's true - but none of it matters anymore after that dual 120/240V load (the stove) had been disconnected. He's talking about connecting a pure 240V load to it. He needs only three conductors for that load, not four, and he has all three available. What's the problem?
Sorry, Wes, your reality check just bounced. That's a complete non-sequitur. As I said above, he needs three wires, he has three wires, no problem.
For devices that use both 120V and 240V, yes. For devices that use *only* 240V (and a table saw falls into this category) and thus do not need a neutral, no, the NEC does *not* require four wires.
Toller, I *know* that's not true. It's obvious you have been reading at least some of my posts, because (a) you've been parroting my electrical advice in a.h.r. and (b) you replied to one of them a few days ago.
I get worried when you agree with anything I say - I immediately check to see if I made a mistake.
I certainly agree that when it comes to electrical issues, there is no reason for you to post anything at all. You don't know what you're talking about; the only way you *ever* give correct electrical advice is when you're repeating what someone else has said. When you strike out on your own, you're dangerous.
>
Does the coil of the switch on the saw operate between the two phase leads or between ground and one of the phases? (I assume a saw will have a magnetic starter...)
Then why did you suggest replacing it?
[snip]That would be a problem, *if* it happened. But the problem is with the installation of that outlet, not with the wiring of the circuit for the table saw.
That's true, whether you know it or not.
And you say you're not reading my posts...
I suppose, then, that you have your alarm clock plugged into a circuit that's protected by a 1-amp fuse?
More evidence of your unsuitability for giving electrical advice.
You gotta love the electrical question threads. Running buddies LRod and Miller get into a bitch slapping-ego fest-I gotta have the last word flame exchange with Toller where insults fly like the sparks from a wiring job that followed their collective advice. A consistent theme is that one or the other is giving dangerous advice, and usually ends with someone swearing to plonk the other forever. Usually when the fur stops flying someone like Wes drops in to correct everyone with some solid and sage advice, leaving the OP wondering who to believe and wondering how all this debate got started in the first place "geeze, all I asked wuz if I could run my saw from the old dryer wiring."
I love the wreck.
Mutt
What difference does it make? The saw's power cord has only three wires: two hots, and equipment ground.
ROTFL... unfortunately, Wes doesn't have a very good handle on it either, but at least his errors fall on the side of excessive caution. Toller, OTOH, is actively dangerous when he gives out electrical "advice", which is why LRod and I keep slapping him. In alt.home.repair, just in the last month or so, he told one poster to install his range hood with the equipment ground connected to the circuit neutral, advised another to connect a multiwire branch circuit to the two poles of a duplex 120V breaker, and claimed that it's nearly impossible to receive a fatal shock from 60Hz 120VAC.
Liar.
Tell you what, Toller: you stop posting stupid, incorrect, dangerous answers to electrical questions... and I'll stop calling your answers stupid, incorrect, and dangerous.
Deal?
Yep...I have no idea how big a load the saw is, but can't be >20 A @
110V, so that's overkill for 220V. That needs 12 ga. I would suggest anything other than a single-use extension, however.If you have need/use for additional 220V outlets in the shop area, I'd either run a dedicated circuit or make the appropriate changes as others have noted to convert this to a dedicated "up-to-snuff" circuit--and, it would be better to have the separate shop circuit properly sized and leave the kitchen circuit as is in that case imo.
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