Consumer Product Safety Comm. to discuss proposed SawStop technology safety rule

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wrote:

Shut down Baskin Robbins - shut down McDonalds - no more McCallan's 18 year old
Tune in every morning to government run calisthenics TV
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George Shouse wrote:

Let's see. We outlawed booze and got the Mafia. We outlawed drugs and got the Columbian Cartel (and a few others). I wonder what the outcome of outlawing something else that people want will be?
Actually, I can probably just wait and see what happens with tobacco :-).
--
It's turtles, all the way down

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wrote:

How many millions of people use their table saw without cutting off a finger? All 10 here and I am a 4th generation "10 finger" table saw user. Maybe it is just good training.
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My God man don't be posting this information. The next thing we know we will be required to pad our tools, wear thimbles on our fingers, and use steel-toe shoes in our home shops. We could also be subject to public disorder charges if heard swearing in our garage shops.
RonB
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RonB wrote:

I wear ice hockey goalie gear, plus earplugs and dust protection.
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Doesn't the glove get in the way of the cut?
;-)
Puckdropper
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Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
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On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 23:43:13 -0500, "sweetsawdust"

According to my new copy of Design News magazine (9/4/06 issue) on page 55, lower right hand corner there's a chart that has some statistics on table saw injuries. The chart says that in calendar year 2002 there were an estimated 33,114 injuries from bench and table saws. In that same year there were 3,503 amputations.
The year with the greatest number of injuries (33,590) was 1998. The year with the greatest number of amputations was 2002.
The chart also says that "over the 10 to 15 year life of a table saw, it would generate societal costs of $2,600 to $3,100 from blade contact injuries." And that such saws have initial costs ranging from about $100 to $300.
The information in the chart is from the CPSC.
I can safely say that my saw, acquired about 17 years ago, which cost around $500 has not contributed at all to those figures since no one has cut anything other that wood with it.
Sad to say, I cannot say the same thing about my radial arm saw or jointer. Yet those items are not at issue. Yet.
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I stopped over at the saw stop site and took a look at their products. Interesting little gizmo, expensive, but very interesting.
I think if you're looking for an absolutely safe saw (from the blade anyway) this puppy just might be the ticket... Though I didn't see saftey bumpers on the corners, soft side cushions on the case, or an airbag type appliance incase of kick backs. And WHAT ABOUT THOSE BLASTED SPINTERS??
Ok I'll be serious for a moment, well as serious as I can be anyway... It looks like somebody put a lot of thought into this and if it works as claimed will save many a person from having to answer questions from their grandkids about why they have to take their shoes off to count to ten. However, with all new technology it's expensive. And anytime you ask a typical woodworker to lay out more cash...Well, let's just say it's not a good thing and leave it at that.
As for mandating that it be installed on all saws. That's an entirely different thing. Now you're encroaching on our rights to injure and maim ourselves in creative and painful ways as we see fit. I agree with everybody above who says "if it's that good a system, it will sell it's self and everybody will install it" The price will come down and like also stated above it will be just like any other feature "standard" on the saws.
Trying to mandate something in the US does tend to raise most folks hackles, we're a bit stiff necked about things when somebody comes up and says "This is how you're gonna do this, by the way you don't have a choice". Even if it's for our own good, we tend to be stuborn types.
I am kinda curious about a few technical aspects of the system. Not everybody keeps their shop in absolute perfect condition, some aren't weather tight, some are damp basements... How does this system handle adverse conditions. If it's relying on monitoring an electrical current through the blade will rust effect it?
What about nails? (I realize we should inspect our wood etc, but it does happen) Will hitting a nail in a piece of wood cause the safety to trip? I'm thinking hitting metal will cause a rather abrupt spike in conductivity and there by blow the stop. A block of aluminum hitting a spinning blade means that blade is toast, at $70 a reload plus $50 (or more) for a new blade, that's an expensive mistake. Does the saw function if you don't reload the cartridge?
For industry I'm thinking they're doomed to have to incorporate it. Insurance companies will make it happen if nobody else does. As with all things it will eventually trickle down to consumer level products. But just like the gaurds that are supposed to be on our saws now, how many are actually in place? I think that that will be the fate of this device as well for most of them.
My humbe two pennies worth of rambling... Take it as you will. :-)
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On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 02:23:57 GMT, George Max

I Googled *Table Saw Accidents*
This came up on the first page- http://www.eh.doe.gov/paa/oesummary/oesummary2006/2006-06screen.pdf#search=%22table%20saw%20accidents%22
* The worker was not trained to operate a TS * The worker was wearingleather gloves while operating the TS * The worker was cutting a semi-rigid foam on the TS * The guard had been removed from the TS
While this is but one case, it shows that accidents do happen when proper procedure is not followed.
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On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 02:23:57 GMT, George Max

Google Search page #2
Tablesaw Accident - I'm an idiot OK... It's official.... I'm an IDIOT and my left thumb is almost a 1/2" shorter to prove it. This happened last Saturday, March 11.
What was I thinking when I was.... - running a tablesaw when my mind was pre-occupied on another matter. (Biggest Mistake!!!!!) - running a tablesaw without my blade gaurd in place - running a tablesaw without using my push sticks.
Answer: I wasn't thinking at all.
Anyway.. not paying attention, I reached for the cut off material and put my thumb right into the blade. Cut the tip off instantly. Calmly shut everything down, walked upstairs squeezing my thumb and told my wife we had to go to the hospital. After her initial shock when I told her not to look at it and just get me a clean wet rag, we headed for the hospital.
I received great treatment by 2 orthapedic surgeons (one was in training). They took x-rays, saw that I cut a through the tip of the bone and also cracked it. After they numbed me up, we were all joking about it as they went to work. Snip some bone here, fold some skin there, put some stitches here... I was all patched up.
The Doc asked my wife how much she was selling my tablesaw for and she told him it was free... and to come get it if he was interested. Obviously, I failed to see the humor in that.
Anyway, the moral of the story is to have your mind on your work and tools and use common sense... which... obviously... I lack.
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Finding the keyboard operational George Max entered:

After reading the other responses, I think this is actually good news and let me explain. First of all this is not going to lead to SawStop being mandated. It may lead to more tablesaw safety which is a good thing for all of us. This was an open meeting. Do you think that saw and other safety equipment manufacturers. weren't there? Do you think that someone else may be working on another method to prevent table saw injuries? None of this is occuring in a vacumm and in the long run will save all of us money. For every worker that gets injured there is a very real possibility that the cost of insurance will increase. This will be passed down to the consumer as higher prices of course. As insurance prices go up, some Mfrs will have to close their doors. More likely ship their manufacturing overseas. More unemployment, another ding in your paycheck. Remember the poor guy who got cut? Could be that he's hurt bad enough that when his disability runs out, he's going on Social Security Disability. Guess who pays for that. Oh, don't forget the food stamps.
Now for all you young people who weren't around in the early 60's, nothing that has been said about the government forcing something down your throat wasn't said back then about seatbelts. At the time, seatbelts were adding about $50.00 to the cost of the car. Go to the NTSB site and look up how many lives seatbelts have saved.
Bob
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Great post Bob, Its nice to enjoy a comment from some one that has an open mind about the big picture and not just about how something will affect you personally.
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The Other Funk wrote:

Yeah, but $50 on a $10000 car is a bit different than $400 on a $2000 saw.
(Remember, currently Sawstop has multiple patents on the concept, and wants 8% of the purchase price in royalties on top of the added cost of the mechanism.)
Chris
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Chris Friesen wrote:

Great post Chris, Its nice to enjoy a comment from someone that has an open mind about the big picture.
I'm not opposed to safety features but I agree with those that say, "hey a tablesaw is dangerous watch what you're doing". A TS is not nearly as common as a CMS or a sawzall. To me a sawzall is far more dangerous than any TS.
And here is my anecdotal CMS story. Buddy of mine had to replace the gears in his saw and reached around to turn it on. Allen wrench ended up completely embedded in the palm of his hand with about 1/2" of the long end visible. Ambulance ride, X-rays, local anistetic (sp?) and the doc just pulled it out with a twist. No permanent damage except his pride.
There are plenty of tools a lot more common than the TS that can hurt people except nobody has figured out a way to patent a feature to make money from govt. mandate. If I remember correctly Volvo has many of the automotive safety patents and didn't/doesn't charge the other manufacturers to use them. Pretty sure their seatbelt mechanism is the one still used today. If this guy is really all about safety he could let the other companies use his patents gratis...
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Finding the keyboard operational Chris Friesen entered:

$50.00 in 1965 = $297.91 today. http://www.westegg.com/inflation / IIRC Dads first new car in 1965 cost $3800.00 If, and that is a big if, Sawstops technology is the only approved method then they won't be getting 8% unless they can prove that is what they need to recoup their research.
Bob PS If you want to freak out your kids, go to http://www.1960sflashback.com/ and show them what the good ol days mean.
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On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 20:13:53 -0600, Chris Friesen

Wow. That would explain why the other saw manufacturers would have nothing to do with it.
What happens... if this gizmo fails to do it's thing and someone get injured? Electro-mechanical devices are NOT foolproof. There are lots of talented fools out there.
A worker gets lackadaisical in their habits because he KNOWS he won't get hurt because of the sawstop, and then it doesn't.
Imagine the number of zero's on that product liability check. ==========================================================================Chris
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The Other Funk wrote:

Mine included. And I wouldn't think of riding my motorcycle without a helmet. But it should be my decision, not forced on me.
Another of my "liberal" opinions :-).
-- It's turtles, all the way down
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Mine included. And I wouldn't think of riding my motorcycle without a helmet. But it should be my decision, not forced on me.
Well, If I did not have to buy auto insurance to protect me AND the other guy I would say the helmet should be optional also. But, if you do not wear it and are insured and file a claim for a head injury we all have to help pay for your rehab. Insurance premiums are high but are not a wash when the cost of your head injury goes in to the hundreds of thousands of dollars. The other policy holders have to pitch in then with higher premiums.
Another of my "liberal" opinions :-).
--
It's turtles, all the way down



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Leon wrote:

Just as I pay for the skiers with broken legs, the ATV riders who overturn, the drivers with cell phones plastered to their ears, etc, etc.
We all pay for each others risks. If the insurance companies wanted, they could refuse to pay out for people who didn't wear their helmets, seat belts, etc. But rather than be the bad guys, they lobby to make the laws do their work for them.
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You know, you would be a lot safer in a car accident if you were wearing a helmet, too...
--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
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