calling all Linux hackers...

[EvoDawg]

what a minute you started this now youre going to run and hide? Just think of how much you will learn.

Rich

[Bill]

Very good. You're not one of those "I hate all Microsoft products" people. I can respect your reasons for using Linux. As I've stated previously, I think it's a better OS than Windows. The killer app for Linux would be an integrated development environment much like Visual Studio in Windows. Unfortunately something like that is difficult since the products to be integrated aren't controlled by a single entity. In that respect, Linux's strength is a weakness and vice-versa for Windows. Maybe they've gotten closer. I haven't done any real dev. in Linux for a couple years now.

I will apologize for my remark about you not wanting to purchase software. That was a bit of a troll and, unsurprisingly, it worked.

-Bill

[Tim Daneliuk]

No. If you have ever programmed in any modern language (perl, C, C++, java, pascal, BASIC, etc.) Python will be the _easiest_ language you ever learned. If I were still teaching (thank goodness I am not), I would use Python for beginning programmers...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Daneliuk [e-mail] PGP Key:

[Mike Alexander]

It's funny. I'm a professional software designer, and my opinion about development environments is exactly the opposite of yours. I have done a lot of work in both environments, and I find Linux to be a much better, much more flexible, and much more powerful development environment than Windows by far. But, diversity is what makes the world so interesting.

I'll give you that Visual Studio is a nice do-it-all environment, but much like the handyman saying, jack of all trades, master of none. By picking the best of the available tools available in Linux, you can put together a much more powerful environment than VS, without much effort. It's not all going to be tied together in one app, but it isn't going to be occupying 100 MB's of memory at all times either.

The other reason I prefer Linux is, it is much harder for a misbehaved app (which most apps under development are) to take down the system. In fact, I don't believe I have ever had the entire machine crash on me while developing in Linux. I definitely can't say the same for any flavour of Windows I've worked on (95, 98, NT, and 2K).

You may want to take another look at some of the environments that are available in Linux now. I've been playing with KDevelop recently, to learn KDE programming (professionally, I mostly work on network daemons

- no UI requirements). From what I have seen so far, it looks quite good. Evolution is another one which I have used. It is still being developed, but is showing a lot of promise. And there is also Source Navigator, which has some glitches, but is otherwise a good environment.

There are several other environments in Linux, but in the end, I almost always end up with vi, make and a command line based compiler, because that is where I am most comfortable.

...Mike

[Mark & Juanita]

Is the software going to specify how you're going to shut off the Tablesaw and remove the stop-cut piece without damage to the piece or yourself?

The thought of a stop-cut on a full or substantial portion of a sheet of plywood seems a bit problematic; but then maybe it's just me.

[Robert Bonomi]

I'll suggest that so-called "stop cuts" are *not* a problem _IF_ the software specifies the order of the cuts.

>

[Doug Winterburn]

This is why I *love* requirements meetings ;-)

-Doug

[nospam]

I just did one a couple of hours ago. countertop with an inside corner. marked the stop point with tape, fed the material to within about 3 or 4 inches, stopped feeding the sheet. raised the blade to finish the cut (closer to 90 degrees and all). cranked the blade all of the way down before shutting down the saw. all in all it felt very safe. now, this was an almost full sheet of 3/4" plywood, so it had enough weight that kickback was unlikely. if it was something like a 6 or 8" wide board of dimensional material I would have lifted it off of the blade when I got close and finished with a handsaw and chisel. Bridger

[EvoDawg]

Thank you for that great explanation. I perfer linux too, and no I'm not a Windows hater, its just when someone bashes linux without ever trying it I get a little pissed. I moved to linux 3 years ago and it's the best move I ever made. It's made computing interesting again. I make the computer do what I want it to do not the other way around. Its rare to ever have a crash and when you do you don't get a blue screen and forced to reboot. Your right vi rules. I'm not a programmer but I do love the command line and writing scripts.

Thanks again, Rich

[Bill]

Like I said, I haven't done much dev. in Linux for a couple years. I'll definitely give those IDEs a look. I was looking at KDevelop yesterday when I wrote the post. Looks pretty good. I always found Emacs to be my environment of choice, but I'd use vi on a server when I needed to do some quick changes.

-Bill

[Bill]

If you're referring to me bashing Linux, I'd suggest you reread all my posts. I never once bashed Linux and I've been using it for nine years now. I was bashing the Linux zealots who always seem to want to debate how evil Microsoft is and how Linux is the second coming for the computing world. When people use words like Microcrap, Windblows, M$, etc., it's usually an indication that the person just runs with the rest of the Linux zealots and doesn't have an independent thought.

-Bill

[Mike Alexander]

As a professional software designer, I've been following this thread with some interest, to see where it goes. Although I already have CutList Plus, and it more than suits my needs, it would be nice to have a Linux native application as well.

Although Linux is my preferred environment, I'm not a Windows basher. In fact, I have two nearly identical computers, 1 running Linux, 1 running Windows. My biggest gripe with Windows is that I don't like the level of integration between the OS and the applications. IMO, it is this level of integration that has lead to all the security problems, and it is what enables an application to crash the entire system. I want my OS to be an OS, no more, no less.

I've been reading all the "requirements" lists that have been posted, and I shake my head. Unless someone steps up and says, "ENOUGH", this project will be killed by feature bloat before the first line of code is written. Now, you could say that this is just brainstorming, and that's fine, as long as someone steps up and says so. But, at some point, a small group of people needs to gather all these suggested features, and whittle it down to the absolute essentials for an initial release. This is a tough thing to do, and there will no doubt be disagreements about what is essential, and what isn't.

I've seen too many first release projects killed by feature creep. I've even been involved in one where all the senior designers (including myself) wanted to build a Chevy and push it out the door, but the architects kept convincing the powers that be, that a Cadillac was required. The project was killed because we were way late, over budget, and missed the market window. If we kept to the Chevy, it would have met the customer's needs (if not their perceived requirements), and we would have been first to the market.

Just thought I would throw that out there, to kind of reel this thing back in a little.

...Mike

[Mike Alexander]

Whoops. Small correction. Evolution is an e-mail client. Eclipse is the IDE I was thinking of. Sorry 'bout that.

...Mike

[Jason Rziha]

I missed the beginning of the thread (short retention on newsserver), so this might have been covered.

Has anyone talked with the developers of the existing programs (sheetlayout or curlistplus) to see if they would be willing to port them to Linux?

Perhaps they'd do so for good debugging feedback. I've forgotten which one I have, but I had found a bug that let one bypass the limits on project size. From a business standpoint, fixing that bug would be worth some development effort.

-- Remove the . from mot.orola and the .splinter from my email address to reply.

Jason Rziha

[EvoDawg]

My last post was not directed to you Bill. After I wrote it and sent it off I expected you might think it was. I just wanted to clear that up. I belong to a couple of Linux OS Help Newsgroups and we constantly get window trolls clouding our posts. And yes it does upset me. Silvan is a great help in one of these groups. I believe in Linux and yes I do advocate it's use. Microsoft upsets me because of their attempts to squash linux and it's competitors. Because of this attempt and back handedness Linux only grows bigger and bigger, not sure if this is a good thing.

It's clear to me exactly how Microsoft works and I refuse to support it's Business Plan. I enjoy working in linux and I'm perplexed by microsoft folks that can't or won't see the light. Open Source is here to stay no matter what Microsoft does to Squash it.

That's all I have to say on this subject since this post has gottin way off topic. At this point all I want to do is try to help Silvan with his project, if I can.

Rich

[Silvan]

I don't get your posts, so I have to read you in reply.

Well, I *am* actually, but I have *personal* reasons. It's my opinion, not an absolute truth. I make my choices, you make yours. I'll help you with Linux problems, and I can spend hours talking about why I like Linux better than Windows, but I'm not going to berate you or anyone else for running Windows. (Outhouse Excess, now, that's a different matter. I wish that would just go away. I wouldn't touch that glop with a 10' pole back when I was arguing that Linux was a "bunch of hacked together slapware" and posting with Agent from Windows 95/98/ME. :)

Nah. Most people these days don't learn two lines of code in any language. The *killer* app for Linux would be a really *excellent* game that's exciting and different enough to get everyone's attention, and which *only* runs on Linux. Not on Windows, not Macs, not on any of the consoles. That'd get people's attention.

(Tux Racer need not apply. LOL!)

Mike Alexander wrote:

The only development environment anybody ever needs is vim anyway. :)

Yeah, you can say that again. Maybe a swap thrash fest from a bad memory leak that brings the system to a speed that makes a snail look fast, but no crashes. Of course kernel hackers can't say that, I'm sure. :)

Not like DOS/Windows. Hooo boy. I never even got anywhere in my attempts to do GUI stuff on that platform. Every little goof and the whole system would crash. Yeesh. Of course, we didn't have all these handy ready to use classes for everything back then either, and it was a lot easier to do something stupid, like write past the end of an array or whatever. (When I finally figured out that the program in question was crashing because it was executing its strings, that's when I hung it up, and hid in userland for many, many years.)

Amen, bruddah... I've never managed to do anything with KDevelop. I end up doing it all in vim. I feel like there might be an easier way, but when I'm in the mood to do something, I'm in the mood to get it done, not to screw around trying to learn some new fancy dongle to make life easier.

The one thing I really don't like about developing in Linuxdom is gdb though. I miss the old Turbo Debugger. I find debugging in Linux to be very difficult, and I tend to avoid it by sticking tons of couts into my code.

[Mark & Juanita]

So, having a strong opinion means that one does not have an independent thought? I am not running Linux because my sat modem won't work with it, but I certainly have very strong opinions regarding Msoft's business practices, crappy software that thinks it knows better than I the effects I am trying to achieve in the documents I am creating, and Msoft's approaches to digital rights management (i.e., they have all the rights, you are along for the ride where they want you to go). Doesn't make me a person running with Linux zealots, makes me a person with not very many choices and a very frustrated attitude.

[Mark Jerde]

True, Outlook Distressed is the HF or Craftsman of newsreaders. But I use it because there's nothing else better, and yes, I've paid real money to buy WinDoze newsreaders like Virtual Access.

I have two other newsreaders installed on this computer. OE is the less-est of 3 evils, but it's still evil.

The only solution, of course, is to write my own. Like all the other efforts through the years, I'll be sure to use a UI that Microsoft would have used if they hadn't been in rectal defilade, and I'll keep the documentation sparse so users have the challenge & thrill of learning to use it.

-- Mark

[Robert Bonomi]

The _original_ reference to 'stop cuts' expressly stated that you did all the rips first, then cross-cut.

If you have a situation such as:

A B +---------------+--------+-------+ | | | | | (1) | (4) | (6) | | | | | | | +-------+ C D +---------------+ | (7) | | +--------+-------+ E | (2) | (5) | | | | +---------------+--------------+-+ F | |X| | |X| | (3) |X| | |X| +------------------------------+-+ G

If you make the cuts in the order F-G-A-D-E-B-C, you never actually deal with the 'having to turn the saw off and extract the stop-cut piece'. EVEN THOUGH most of the rips do not go the full length of the raw material.

Laying out the above to strictly comply with 'rip, then cross-cut', takes 2 sheets of material, and results in 50+% waste.

The *only* time a stop-cut is indicated is when you _need_ an 'L-shaped' piece; and in that situation, it is -- to the best of _my_ knowledge -- *unavoidable*.

[Silvan]

Feh. It's not even as useful as one of those screwdriver sets from the Dollar Tree.

No Linux zealotism required either. I looked at that thing when it came out, and I said "wow, what a piece of crap" and I kept using Agent. Agent is good software. I'd probably be running it now if they'd port it to Linux (even if I had to pay for it again), but I don't love it enough to futz with Wine to get it.

I never saw IE or OE as something people would ever actually *use*. I just figured they were these cheap freebie giveaway junk things like the solitaire game and mine sweeper. But millions of people don't even know there's anything else out there. Millions don't even care, because they're used to the stuff that came on their CD, and that's what all their friends use too, so why look for anything else? If it's good enough for Uncle Bill, why, hell, why should I look for something different?

I can see where this was a good thing in a way. It used to be that you installed DOS, and you could type DIR and look at your COMMAND.COM and AUTOEXEC.BAT all day, and whee. Maybe if you were really adventuresome, you might even find FORMAT.COM and DIR.EXE. If you wanted to do anything, you had to go buy some software. Even after Windows came to town, you installed Windows, and you got a bunch of pretty stuff on the screen, and a solitaire game.

(Admit it old timers. You used to start Windows just to play the solitaire game, and then you'd exit back to DOS to get real work done, because early Windows couldn't multitask worth a damn, and you had work to do. Am I right?)

I thought Microsoft was trying to help people out by offering up some cheapo freebies. I never predicted that those cheapo freebies would become the most widely used software on earth. THEY SUCK!!! I didn't run any of that shit years before I ever thought about giving Linux a try. Not only do people run them, Microsoft has set it up to discourage people from trying to avoid them. It's hard to get rid of IE, for example. All other considerations aside, it's probably easier on their tech support people if they know what everyone is running in advance.

That's one thing I really liked about Linux from day one. It's all there. Every newsreader that has been written for a Unix-like platform in the last

20 years is there on the CD. Every e-mail program, every web browser (well, maybe not Opera.) There are still far too many categories where we have nothing at all, or our best offering is still in pretty rough shape, but we at least have these basics covered in spades, shovels, and wheelbarrows. Two major, modern GUIs with associated suites of applications, three office packages, myriad independant offerings.

A lot of these new generation IE/OE users are baffled by this level of choice when they look at Linux. A lot of these applications really suck too, but there's something in these primary categories for everyone, and nobody is forced to use nor discouraged from using anything. It's easy to delete what you don't want. Run KDE but use Nautilus (or whatever the GNOME web browser is now), run GNOME but use KMail, run IceWM but use Evolution and slrn. We have choices out the ass, and it's all right there. It's not like your kernel crashes because you decide you don't want to run Konqueror and try to replace it with Opera.

I see Windows like the way we Americans used to view Communist Russia in propaganda films. A lot of sad people, all dressed in black, trudging back and forth to work every day with a look of desolate resolution on their faces. I see Linux as Mardi Gras or Carneval. Lots of freaky people in bright colors doing weird dances and getting really wasted and having one hell of a good time in the process.