Cabinet Installation Question - Toe Kick

[Bob]

I am preparing to build some kitchen cabinets and was looking at options for making the installation easier.

I was planing on just making flat bottoms and installing them on a 2x4 frame (leveled and anchored first) and then putting a face on the 2x4 to finish it off.

Then someone told me that they would build the toe kick into the cabinet and just shim and level it at install time. This would require notching all the sides for the toe kick and seems to me, complicating the building of the cabinet.

And finally, I have seen these leveling legs that attach to the bottom of the cabinet. You just have to install a special toe kick that clips onto the legs. I just worry how these would hold up. Are they strong enough to hold a solid stone top?

Does anyone have any opinions on these options? Any preferences? Pros/Cons...or any other ideas.

Appreciate any advice in advance.

bob

[Bernie Hunt]

I've used the adjustable feet for built in cabinets before and never worried about loading. If you are building individual cabinets, then the counter top will be head up my many pairs of these feet. I wouldn't worry about it. If its still a concern, the use your 2x4 method. That will definately provide enough load capability. If you do, I would make sure to hand the face frame down past the bottom of the cabinet. That will hide any imperfections in fitting the toe kick.

A couple of years ago, the home contruction magazine related to FWW ran an article on installing kitchen cabinets. They used a 2x4 base and standard carcases built off site. Once they were in a true, the ripped down face frames and matched the doors. The face frame were continuous between the carcases and there for helped to tie them together. It also removed the joint between the two cabinets. Seemed like a nice way to make semi built ins using standard parts.

Bernie

[Unisaw A100]

This is called a ladder frame for all the obvious reason. It's typically what I do though you should start with very straight 2X material. One of the nice things about using

3 1/2" wide material is, you only need to put 1/2" pad material at all the spots where you want it to touch the floor and the cabinets will automagically be at the "more conventional" 4". You can use the tabs for screwing the assembly to the floor. Also, 1 X 4 material works fine.

Acknowledged and I agree though it eliminates a step later. You have to work out the trade off.

With casework permanently attached you don't need to be so bullet proof. In other words, the cabinets are sitting on top of the legs. Without the cabinets being moved left to right/front to back, what kind of stresses are put on the legs?

As I said, I like the ladder frames. After the install all that's left to do is apply the finished toe board and base shoe.

UA100

[B a r r y]

I prefer this way for multiple boxes, I prefer toe kicks as part of the cabinet with single cabinets, such as a vanity.

I also use the box on frame method for window seats and bookcases.

Barry

[B a r r y]

I use ripped down 3/4" ply instead of 2x. It's always straight, very easy to install, and it's rare that a cabinet project dosen't have enough material left over already. The leftover stuff can also have a finish applied, PRESTO, instant matching toe kick!

Use small pieces as doublers at corners and midspan junctions.

Barry

[Woodstock]

I have found it is easier and more efficient to make the carcase and toe kick units separately, given the realities of making kitchen cabinets with the resources of a hobby woodworker. The design is basically as you describe, although I suggest milling the 2 x material so it is truly straight and flat, or, alternatively, using plywood. The more accurate the base, the easier and better the installation will be. A 1/4 ply panel, scribed to the floor, gets tacked to the front for finish.

I used these legs for a freestanding storage unit and was suprised by how rugged they are. I can see where they would be very handy for people who must install many cabinets quickly. Can't see the huge advantage for a hobbyist doing their own work, though.

[Swingman]

It really depends upon the circumstances at the site.

For a long run of base cabinets,the separate base is almost always a faster, easier and truer install - providing you use straight stock for the base and your cabinets are square (which they will be if you did them, but not necessarily if someone else did ---- otherwise you end up shimming boxes AND base).

For stand-alone base cabinets, like maybe those found on either side of an appliance in many installations, I will consider building the toe kick into the cabinet, as it is often quicker and less work doing it in the shop than building multiple bases on site.

In the strictly-my-observation-and-opinion category, a base cabinet with a properly built-in toe kick will be substantially stronger, and less subject to racking, than a box without, but it may a trade-off in time, both in fabrication and installation.

For my last personal kitchen, I built-in the toe kicks on all the cabinets ... but it was new construction and an open ended installation. I also do quite a few one-off base cabinets for a couple of local remodelers and always build in the toe kick in those.

[bridger]

another consideration is efficiency of materials. with a separate kick you can just get 3 cabinet sides onto the 8' length of a sheet of plywood. if the kicks are integral you only get 2 with a lot left over.

too, with modern materials, mdf core sheet goods and the like, a cabinet can get pretty heavy. anything to make it a little lighter and easier to manuver through a doorway is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

they're fine. they also give more options for the use of the space beneath the cabinet. it's a lot easier to snake a wire or service a water line if you don't have to remove the cabinet....

[Swingman]

That depends upon width and style.

For example: With a traditional face frame 27" X 24" X 34 1/2" cabinet (fairly standard, drawer size kitchen base cabinet), I get 4 end panels with (toe kick built-in) out of 1 4x8 sheet of plywood.

[Scott Lurndal]

Read somewhere the other day about building baking sheet storage drawer(s) into the toe kicks - has anyone done this?

scott

[Bernard Randall]

Having built 4 complete kitchens for different houses I've lived in, I find it difficult to understand the continuation of frame style construction. The last three I built were essentially Euro type construction and were definityly much faster to construct than the first which was frame. In Euro construction, which uses 3/4" sheet material for the sides, it is only necessary to make a cut out for the toe kick.

On the kitchen I am just finishing I made my own levellers from 1 1/2" angle iron and tapped for a 3/8" carriage bolt.

Bernard R

[Morris Dovey]

Scott...

Why didn't /I/ ever think of that? What a great idea! Thanks!

[Swingman]

It's like cars or colors, a matter of preference. I personally prefer the more traditional look of the modern "face frame" cabinet. Euro "frameless" cabinets have a more modern appearance to my eye.

One of the original intentions of the Euro style, "frameless" cabinet was portability for the European owner, who often took his cabinets with him when he changed houses. Now a days that style is unfortunately often used by cost cutting builders as an excuse to build an inferior product, and further justified by the crowd who thinks kitchen cabinets should only last about 10 to 15 years, at most.

Using modern construction techniques, there is really not much difference when building the actual boxes themselves. In my experience building both, the face frame adds considerable strength to the whole assembly.

Depending upon the method of construction, the same goes with today's "face frame" style cabinet.

[bridger]

read my post again. the 3 parts fitting in the 8' dimension addresses the vertical dimension only. if the cut *width* of the panel used for the cabinet side is 24 or less and the kicks are 3-1/2" or more high and not integral and the finish height of the counter is not more than

36" you'll get *6* sides from a full sheet.

[bridger]

I think you have that backwards. today's "euro" style cabinets are an offshoot of the bauhaus school, and were designed to be mass produced efficiently and assembled easily by *less* skilled labor.

the older style of cabinet, with face frames, which give the cabinet more strength independent of the wall or whatever it's bolted to, is a design that evolved from antiquity and served among other things to allow the cabinet to be carried from place to place. it's more like a piece of furniture. some of our "traditional" cabinet designs clearly illustrate this, such as the bathroom vanity with legs. it is a direct descendant of the dry sink...

[Swingman]

You read your post again. It is a blanket statement, stating a finite number of cabinet sides, with and without built-in toe kicks, that was not necessarily correct.

I said it "depends", gave you an example ..and you now apparently agree.

[bridger]

um...

"with a separate kick you can just get 3 cabinet sides onto the

8'length of a sheet of plywood"

note that reference to the 8' length, and nowhere a reference to width?

[Swingman]

Quite the contrary ... it is you that has it "backwards".

The traditional kitchen cabinet was built into the structures walls, most often with fixed shelves, most often requiring the interior walls to be painted as part of the cabinet, most often with a frame and/or face frame, and were decidedly NON-portable.

The advent of the "frameless" Euro style cabinet made portability and ease of installation a design feature.

[Swingman]

I know what you said ... but you stated it solely in the context of "another consideration is efficiency of materials."

Which was the thrust of your post ,and apparently your reason for posting, was it not?

I simply pointed out, with an example, that the difference in designing a cabinet with or without a toe kick, does NOT necessarily have a "efficiency of materials" component that is of any concern.

Without regard for grain direction, i.e. a painted cabinet, there can be just as much (if not more in some instances) "efficiency of materials" with a built-in toe kick, as without.

One would NOT get that impression from your original post ... sorry if you took it as an attack.

[B a r r y]

When I was in Switzerland, I was under the impression that a lot of Euro cabinets can be knocked down, ala Ikea style.

Barry