I am thinking of making my own kitchen flat panel doors...and refacing the cases. I have a good biscuit joiner and would like input on whether the biscuit techniques is strong enough for kitchen cabinet doors...or should I go with the traditional mortise and tenon assembly ?
Also..anyone know of a good site for detailed instructions/examples of a good quality kitchen door assembly ?
Thanks, Tim
With cabinet doors, stick with M&T. A few hundred years of a tried and true joinery method is to be ignored at your own peril, IMO.
I vote for m&t or cope and stick. IMO biscuit joints don't have enough glue surface. Your gluing end grain to long grain in a door.
Doors of any kind take an huge amount of stress over time. If you go with cope and stick you'll have sufficent glue area to hold it together. If you are talking mitered or butted then M&T is the way to go.
I've seen studies where biscuits do add some strength similar to tennons but no where near the same strength. I consider them only valuable for alignment.
TimR wrote:
TimR wrote: : I am thinking of making my own kitchen flat panel doors...and refacing the : cases. I have a good biscuit joiner and would like input on whether the : biscuit techniques is strong enough for kitchen cabinet doors...or should I : go with the traditional mortise and tenon assembly ?
I wouldn't hesitate to use biscuits. They're plenty strong enough for this application.
-- Andy Barss
Latest issue of Wood magazine rates biscuits as _barely_ stronger than butt joints in all directions. Dowels were second in strength to M&T.
buy the mag to read about their testing. VERY hard for me to believe that the long-grain to long-grain gluing, even over the small area of a biscuit, is not a big improvement over end-grain to long-grain gluing of a plain butt joint. Maybe the problem is my impression of the weakness of end-grain gluing. I've always accepted that as an article of faith, but never tested it.
I agree. Although my personal bias is in line with Swingman's, I think you have the right practical answer.
Data point: I built a "doggie gate" from 5/4 SYP (heavy) that was 48" long (much longer torque arm than the OP will have on kitchen cabinets) that a 40-poind puppy liked to climb over (OP should shoot anyone who hangs from his kitchen cabinet doors). And my customer and wife was more interested in having it NOW than in my having a fun woodworking project. So I built it with doubled #20 biscuits, and it has held up just fine.
I'd challenge anyone to break a cabinet door built with biscuits, while it is hanging on hinges. Unless you use a really heavy piano hinge with long screws, my money is on the hinges giving out first.
RayV brings up an interesting article, though. Worth checking out for additional info.
P.S. This weekend, I will chop the mortises for the M&T panel doors for a cabinet I'm building. But it is more a neander thing than a sense that I really NEED to.
I think the problem lies in the structural nature of the biscuits. The fiber structure seems to have been purposely crushed as part of the manufacturing process and they are very porous so to be able to absorb the glue and expand. Their shape also minimizes their strength with the full width only at the center and minimal width even just 1/2" away from the center.
Now a true spl> "RayV" wrote:
I guess you will!
They went to an actual materials testing lab and used widely accepted, calibrated test equipment.
The article is quite well written, and the testing methods make sense.
: Latest issue of Wood magazine rates biscuits as _barely_ stronger than : butt joints in all directions. Dowels were second in strength to M&T.
:
-- Andy Barss
Just goes to show, you shouldn't believe everything you read.
If you have a router table, I'd seriously suggest buying a door rail and style set.. It's maybe around $60-80 (haven't bought in a long time). Since you are doing a whole kitchen, it will save you tons and tons of time. Mortise and tenon is ok for just doing a couple doors, but a whole kitchen? That would take forever. In addition, they will look better, since they cut a decorative edge on the inside of the door. (IMO, of course).
"Wood" tested the joints two ways, shear strength and pullout resistance. As I remember, biscuits did OK in pullout resistance, the comparison to butt joints was in the shear test portion.
M&T came out on top in both.
"Wood" also included pocket screws in the tests.
This brings up an interesting point.
You are looking at it from the point of view where one (or maybe several) blow(s) will destroy the door. From that point of view, I agree with you.
However...
I've seen lots of cabinet doors fail slowly, as years of slamming shut, spills on lower cabinets, etc... takes a toll on the glue. The only joints I've ever had come apart were biscuited.
A full-on closed M&T is probably not necessary, but there are plenty of compromises between that and biscuits. For instance:
- One could groove the stiles and rails on tablesaw or router table, and leave a stub tenon that matches the grooves.
- Cope and stick bits are available for simple, straight-edged doors. Do a whole kitchen in a few hours.
- The tenon could continue all the way to one outside edge (bare faced tenon), with the open-ended mortises easily cut with a router and straight bit. Done properly, this could look nice, too. You'd see the end of the tenon on the top and bottom, with perfect side edges. This would be quick and easy to do, simply rounding the tenon edge to the radius of the router bit with a rasp or sanding block.
- Dowels
I'd love to hear your critique of the testing methodology that Wood used.
todd
Here it is: They're full of shit. Satisfied?
No. I get the impression that you haven't read the article. Speaking as someone with the educational and practical experience to be able to evaluate their testing, I'll have to read the article before making such a determination.
todd
Are your rails going to be wide enough for a biscuit? If so, IMHO it will be OK. You said "flat panel" if you use plywood you can glue them in to the frames & they will be plenty strong.
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