BUY USA clause in bailout package violates NAFTA

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Didn't anybody learn anything in the 1930's? Protectionism is a bad idea. For anybody.
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Robatoy wrote:

The new pres has already said he doesn't like NAFTA. Maybe this is the first step in shutting it down?
On the other hand, as we've seen before the USA only abides by NAFTA rulings when they're in their favour.
Chris
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On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 15:02:21 -0600, Chris Friesen

When they THINK it's in their favour
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I am dumbfounded over this. How is this supposed to repair the international image of the US that Obama is so desperately trying to improve?
He wants to be the global Oprah/Phil Donahue/Wayne Dyer, yet he wants to shut out our trading partners. That should build PLENTY of good will with the global community.
The possibility of America standing on its own two legs is long, long passed. Without our trading partners we are screwed. We are incapable of turning this economy around without the help of others.
With so many of our resources, and so much of our manufacturing and construction held in the hands of just a few here in the US, I shudder to think what the costs will be with little or no competition. I can't stand to think of the construction giants (which themselves are global monsters - not hometown boys) getting even fatter building municipal buildings and highways.
Since Hosana wants to start these projects right away, no doubt using the same financial team that has overseen the first bailout dough go away (you know, 18 billion in bonuses, 2 million dollar office remodels, etc.) imagine what will happen when we plunge willy-nilly into selecting the biggest contractors to get going immediately.
Budgets? Naw.... don't need 'em. We go no competition.
Material pricing? Don't worry! Where are they gonna go? It has to stay between us!
One of the finer points of the bill I saw in a news article said that they are even going to ask that ALL tools be made in the USA. I worked on a union job as an observer for the owners of a large building at one time. They union requireed that they had ALL USA made tools. No Makita, Hitachi, DeWalt, or PC. The only used a special line by B&D, anything Milwaukee, and a couple of others. One day, both circular saws that two pairs of carpenters were using. Since their reserve saw was in use by another pair, they had none of their own. The certified USA saw from an approved vendor was somewhere en route from waayyy up north. So those four knotheads sat on their hands after halfhearted looking for work for 1/2 day the first day, all day the next, and a couple of hours on the third. Finally, two saws came, and four men went back to work.
Now imagine that being done with your own hard earned dollars. Not to mention that the tools cost double the amount of their international competitors. Think what that will do.
Imagine all the tools on a job; drills, saws, sledge hammers, skid steer loaders, back hoes, material dollies, you name it. Some of that stuff hasn't been made here for years. I don't know that we have the technology to build many of these machines anymore. Where does that leave us? Rather than to get going on the projects, will there be even more bail out money thrown out the window to start new factories so the industry cronies can finish screwing the last nickels out of us?
Do you think Obama will give up his Blackberry or cell phone to keep the "buy America" campaign going his way? After all, I am sure that he only uses American made electronics, right?
This is just starting to get worse by the day. The arrogance and stupidity of this whole bailout situation is getting ridiculous.
Robert
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wrote:

You are Right on! I think it's the "F" in NAFTA, that this administration objects to. They can't control business in Canada or Mexico as easily as they can in the US. And with this bunch, it's all about control. Hang on to your hats. It's going to be a Helluva ride!
Gene
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wrote:

The government is the cause of our recession, now they are trying to be the solution. We need "No taxes for 6 months," then I might think about shopping. Bush nor Obama shine with financial responsibility; too bad for USA taxpayers. Sadly, the only thing I can do is boycott products of those who were bailed out.
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On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 00:53:57 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Dare I point out that we were warned about exactly that possibility a long time ago?
And then there was Perot's giant sucking sound.
--
It's turtles, all the way down

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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:
... snip

Keep in mind also Robert B. Reiche's testimony before congress in which he said that he didn't want those infrastructure jobs going to "white male construction workers" -- his exact words.
... snip

Elections have consequences. Nobody was willing to listen to concerns during the election season. No intellectual curiosity was displayed by the media on the candidate's past record, associations, or experience. They were of course, sufficiently curious to air-drop hundreds of reporters into Alaska to dig through dumpsters for dirt on the other party's VP pick.
What did people THINK was going to happen when they elected liberal statists to office? That somehow they were going to get fiscal restraint and fiscal responsibility?
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

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I know, I know. But I am going with John Wayne on this one; "He wasn't my candidate, but he is my President". I am trying to give the guy a chance and be as positive as possible. I am sick of the infighting between politicians and the public over partisanship issues.
I WANT things to go well. I do not care who the president is... neither side of the isle has been able to field anyone dynamic for years, so we are left with whatever candidate wants to face the storm. I am not partisan; both sides stink of the feces of "bought and paid for" politics.
I want Obama to do well as our leader, because if he does, by default it is <possible> we might as well.
I just didn't think things would go SO horribly wrong SO fast... less than 14 days in... I didn't have a clue those guys were that arrogant and downright stupid.
Robert
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

If the argument is over statist vs. freedom issues, I want people to be partisan and not sell out to the statists. Freedom surrendered to the state is hard, if not impossible to regain.

I wouldn't mind him doing well if he were not espousing policies that are going to do our country ill. Unfortunately, the policies he is pushing are the same failed policies that kept our country mired in the Depression until WWII finally broke us out of that condition.

Given the policies being promoted (government is the answer) and the arrogance on the parts of the House and Senate leadership (Pelosi and Reid specifically), how could anybody be surprised? Pelosi completely shut out the other side from even being able to make recommendations for the pork bill and then had the gall to publicly state that she was not "partisan" or "bi-partisan", she's "non-partisan". I guess so, as long as your definition of "non-partisan" is going along with what the Democrat leadership proposes.

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

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<...snipped...>

Well, if they based their decision on the budget performance of Republican vs Democratic administrations over the last 30 years or so, yes.
--
Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org
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Larry W wrote:

You're a funny man. Naive, but funny
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

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[... snipped "buy USA" for bailout ...]

Your anger and ire are misplaced. We're in the situation we're in by spending our money overseas. Our largess with our neighboring countries, through NAFTA, brought only the beneficients' scorn and disdain, while we suffered loss of jobs and loss of capital. Hell, even our marijuana comes from Canada and Mexico. It's true; we can't compete with their smaller economies on a level field.
As for the stimulus money, the simplest analogy is with pipes and plumbing. In a closed system, the money makes several roundtrips through the economy before petering out, multiplying its effectiveness each time through. The money goes to workers in your community, where they spend it on goods, and they in turn spend it on more goods. We pay taxes on the money. The money comes back out to pay for more work and more product. There's a name for this economic theory. Keynesian, I think, but I might as well try to do integral calculus as remember the fine details.
So, what about the import tool restrictions? Why cut NAFTA partners out of the pie? First, our dear neighbors don't pay taxes or tariffs in the US. Money leaves, and doesn't return. The status quo is exactly why we have a problem. So, what to do about the lack of domestic tools and suppliers? This is secondary money, funding US industry, making more jobs, opening a market for manufacturing. Manufacturing builds a long supply chain, opening more domestic markets, developing still more jobs, and circulating the capital to more corners of the economy. Or something like that.
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How does that deal with manufacturers of products for foreign markets? Not everything the US makes is for domestic consumption. You have to keep selling cluster bombs to other 'friendly' countries, you know. Oh, and that money that is supposed to go around and around in a closed loop system? After the money-lenders and robber barons and tax people and utility gougers skim off the bulk of it? The money a working man spends to heat his home goes up the chimney, so to speak, never to return as anything worthwhile. How do you replenish it? Print some more?
Many economic models work well as long as you exclude the predators.
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Robatoy wrote:

Umm - are you still liking the "cluster bomb" I shipped your way?

What makes you think it doesn't?

So? Stay away from the money-lenders. Look for suppliers who aren't robbers. Innovate to minimize dependence on utility gougers. Look for ways to avoid paying more taxes than absolutely required - and actively work to shrink those requirements.

Well, that's a choice for the working man to make. It's not a given that it /has/ go up the chimney...

That's one choice, another might be to actually produce something that can be sold with sufficient markup to cover the overhead associated with being alive.

And the ones that do work well in the real world, do so in spite of the predators. The challenge isn't just to get rid of the predators - it's also to not allowing yourself to be a victim in an arena where there will always be predators.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
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"Morris Dovey" wrote

Au contraire ... if meekly accepting 18 - 30% interest on credit card debt, in itself a clear manifestation of rampant ignorance/stupidity, is not offensive, it's rather doubtful your words can be.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
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Hey Swing.
Not to rain on your parade but --- I really do not care how much interest the thieves charge. I still use my credit cards daily and I get to use their money for 30 days while mine gets 30 days of interest (all be it mighty small in comparison)
I Pay Them All Off when billed.
I have done so for years (about 30 of them) as that was when I figured out how they went about charging interest.
P D Q

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Thirty days of interest? How could you have any interest payment if you pay when billed? I've used credit cards for over 30 years, never had an interest charge. I have Visa and Discover. With Discover, I get "cash back." The problem with credit cards is most people buy more stuff than with using cash, I guess it is the spontaneous purchase syndrome. Most people, including the government, buy with money they do not currently have.
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Phisherman wrote: ...

He said "_mine_ gets..." -- meaning his money is in an interest-bearing (albeit low) account for an additional 30 days before the billing cycle date...
--
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wrote:

Not reading him right. He gets the credit card co's money interest free for 30 days while his money, sitting in the bank, COLLECTS interest for 30 days.
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