Buy American? Starrett measuring tools.....

[Andy Dingley]

Compared to Mitutoyo ?

IMHO, Starrett are doomed - like so many US and UK manufacturing companies. No, I don't know an answer, this is just an observation. But when I can buy a $100 Starrett tool for $5 from Lucky Golden Hedgehog (and it's rubbish) or for $50 from Mitutoyo and it's as good if not better than Starrett's, then why _should_ I buy the US version?

You can talk about "loyalty" all you like, but sometimes that just becomes an excuse for a stupid buying decision. HP's printers have been rubbish for some years, and this is the company that gave us the LaserJet (my 15 year old LaserJet is still running, my 2 year old inkjet is scrap)

More importantly, you can't run a company on loyalty alone. Even if some of your customers still buy "for old times sake", the majority of them are fickle and will move away.

[Unisaw A100]

Ditto what Mike said though I've taken the route of finding them at garage/estate sales. Of course it never hurts that we did once upon a time employ an inordinate amount of machinists here in the upper midwest.

Also, eBay and don't stay stuck too long on Starrett when there are also the Unions, the Lufkins, the Mitutoyos, the PECs, the STIs, the Brown and Sharpes, and the Scherr Tumicos.

UA100, who paid/pays around $10-$20 (1) average for a 12" Starrett 3-piece combo...

(1) One does have to uncover a lot of garage/estate sales to find a decent tool or two at great prices and whilst one could/should/would factor in this time as it relates to the cost of the purchase one could/should/would also offset this factor/cost with the thrill of the hunt for it's own entertainment value. I mean, what better way to kill a Saturday than to hunt down tool and machine bargains?...

[Unisaw A100]

It's interesting how perception plays into all of this. Let's look at two companies that rely on the perception of their products.

Starrett deservedly enjoys a perception that their tools are the finest that one can buy. Craftsman (Sears) also enjoys a perception that their tools are the finest one can buy. The difference is Starrett owns their perception based on fact whereas Craftsman is riding on past performance. Starrett's audience is very narrow where as Craftsman's is continually resupplied by those who have bought into the hype. Starrett is under some pretty stiff competition from tool makers whose products are as good but being produced less expensively. Craftsman continues to degrade (1) but continues to thrive because the new customers have not caught on yet.

It really kinda depends on your niche.

(1) Yes I know there are *some* good/great Craftsman tools/machines but on a whole it's safer to assume that you won't be buying the best and crying once.

UA100, no solutions here, just an observation or three...

[Greg Millen]

G'day Keith,

Well, there's um, ahh. Did you say 10-12 for a combo set?

Groggy (who's finally getting some shop time)

[O D]

All you have to do is watch the UPS driver when he walks back to his truck. Notice his knuckles dragging the ground? Need I say more about Un---Professional ----Service

[Andy Dingley]

Really ? Now I'm in the wrong country to really be familiar with these things, but my impression was always that they were about as good as Black & Decker (i.e. not very).

Lately I've been wearing out Eclipse hacksaw blades, even the bi-metal ones. This _really_ annoys me, because I have another of their blades, supposedly identical, that I know I've been using for twenty years. If you ever let the quality slip, it does get noticed.

[Unisaw A100]

Hey Der/Ho Der/Hi Der Greg,

On a good day a body can find a Starrett 4R blade in the $1/$2 range, maybe $5. A head might set you back $5/$10, maybe as high as $20. A full set (head/scribe/blade) can be found in the $10/$20 range, maybe $30. My best was the full boat (head/scribe/blade/protractor/center head) for $20ish.

sigh...

UA100, just lounging this weekend after 19 straight days at work (at work of course)...

[Joe Wells]

The Craftsman brand really did have great tools for a long time. I still use my grandfather's drill from the 40's. Many, many Craftsman RAS and TS from decades past are still in service and still outperform their current C-man kin. Their mechanic's tools are still very good.

So the perception of "Craftsman=good tools" is somewhat justified. Guys who are just starting to put their own tools together are likely to see quite a few Craftsman tools among his father's and grandfather's tools. Plus professional endorsements (Hi, Bob!) and endless commercials help to prop the image up. I've never seen DeWalt, Grizzly, Jet, Makita, General, Laguna, etc. advertise on television. Delta commercials are uncommon.

So it can take some time (and a few less than satisfactory purchases) before the Craftsman myth is truly revealed.

[Unisaw A100]

You impression is correct. Among the brain dead who will take the time to fill out a survey (1), it's not.

(1) These are the same people we allow to vote for and elect our elected officials making me think this whole idea of democracy has a serious flaw and maybe a test wouldn't be totally out of line.

UA100

[GTO69RA4]

Looking at that list, WD-40 and especially Bose are another couple brands that are frighteningly overrated.

GTO(John)

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Are you sure? Look at all the money they spend on advertising. ;)

Add Frigidaire to the list. Used to make some of the best appliances when they were part of General Motors.

[Ron Bean]

They're not being fickle-- if they bought from you for a reason, and you remove that aspect of your product, they'll stop buying for the same reason they were attracted to your product in the first place. The reason could be quality, or price, or whatever, but if you change the deal, you'll have to attract a different set of customers.

The strange thing is when every manufacturer chases the low-priced end of the market. Haven't they ever heard of niche markets?

[CW]

Yes. It's getting so that buying things of high quality, realizing that it will cost more, is hard to do. Cheap is all you can find.

[Glen]

Actually this survey makes perfect sense. If you ask Joe Homeowner, who uses a tool once every few months, to name some tool brands, probably the first (and in many cases only) brand name he'll come up with will be Sears. When he goes to the mall with his wife he probably sees all those cool toys and imagines them great, having no basis of comparison. As someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, few of the other companies advertise at all to the mass media (Joe Howeowner doesn't read FW, PW, AW or Wood Mag. to see the other ads).

Glen

[B a r r y]

All of those magazines are sold in supermarkets, not to mention Family Handyman. There is no secret handshake required to flip through any of them while Suzy picks out veggies. My local supermarket has padded chairs in the magazine and book aisle!

Delta, Jet, Porter Cable, Dewalt, Bosch, etc... show up in many home centers and warehouse stores, including SEARS! My local Sears and Sears Hardware stores display the good brands side by side with Craftsman and B&D. Home Depot and Lowes market directly at Harry Homeowner, if he wasn't born yesterday, he's been there.

Dewalt, Porter Cable, Bosch and Makita sponsor sports, including a ton of auto racing. Many of them sponsor or have sponsored Norm, This Old House, Warehouse Warriors, and home improvement / makeover shows that attract more and more of an audience.

Nowadays, you'd really have to have just stepped off the UFO, with your last Earth visit in the 60's, to not know of Bosch, PC, Dewalt, Makita, etc... and believe B&D or Craftsman is top notch stuff. Those companies are milking a reputation, and it may take a generation, but the reputation will correct itself.

Barry

[Destined]

Joe,

Delta does advtertise on PBS woodworking shows like "New Yankee Workshop" and others..

Jeremy

[Glen]

I don't disagree with you one bit, the info is out there, as are all the mags, but I maintain that the average, non-serious wooddorker does not see those ads or appreciate the difference between a quality tool and a Sears tool.

Again, I agree with you, they are there, but most Joe Homeowner types remember Bob Vila's smiling face and assumes that the Sear's name represents quality. After all, we all know that Bob Vila is a serious professional. ;-)

Here, sir, I must disagree, if only from anicdotal evidence. I can't count the times I have talked tools with non-wooddorking friends and co-workers who appear to have never heard of Delta (a faucet company?) and Powermatic (don't they make the vegetable dicers that we see on the infomercials?)

Glen

[B a r r y]

"Industrial" names like Powermatic, General, etc... are a whole 'nuther ball game, and I'll agree with you on that. I was mainly comparing DeWalt, Makita, PC, Bosch, etc... with Craftsman and Black & Decker. Handheld power stuff, like drills, saws and sanders, that a homeowner might buy, not specialized heavy iron.

Delta really suprises me as they make plenty of inexpensive, homeowner quality tools, like miter saws, that are sold in home centers. They also do plenty of mass-market advertising. My clueless brother-in-law even has a Delta miter saw.

Have these people ever been in the tool aisle at Sears, Home Depot, or Lowes?

Barry

[Joe Wells]

Which is why I labeled them "uncommon".

[Lazarus Long]

It can get worse. I've had discussions with co-workers who know full well what a good tool is, know the brands, and still make a passionate arguement in favor of the likes of Black & Decker and Craftsman as being great tools. Their position is that 95% percent of tool buyers can't afford and don't need "those overpriced luxury tools" ala Milwaukee, Bosch, Porter-Cable, ect.

BUT - the times I've loaned one my good tools, my DeWalt jigsaw or my PC RAS for example, they uniformy return it (in working order) and report "WOW! that works great! So much better that my old Ryobi (or Craftsman or other off brand).

The performance is the proof, but many people have yet to use a good tool for the task at hand.