Blade Guard on a Table Saw?

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I would speculate that your speculation of his speculation is merely speculation.
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On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 16:21:29 -0400, "Locutus"

Well it's a rainy afternoon and I'm waiting for some glue to dry, so why not...
Frank
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Frank Boettcher wrote:

But you actually discuss a matter not dispositive as to the question of what proportion of the injured sues or seriously considers suing.
It is not that your comments are wrong or even questionable, they just don't address that particular question.

I didn't argue that meritless (dare I say fraudulent) suits are not an expensive problem, only that it is rare for a plaintiff to win one that actually DOES go to trial.
That the vast majority of cases are settled out-of-court does not address the question of what proportion of the injured has (seriously) contemplated suing. For every meritless suit there may be ten or more equally injured people who lack the chutzpah to sue.
Despite having Usenet access I still think that decent (even if careless) people are the majority.
--

FF


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On 25 Oct 2006 17:35:47 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@spamcop.net wrote:

OK please tell me how that matters. If most are trivial or without merit and most are settled by paying off the those intitiating the suit, how does that matter whether it goes to trial other than semantics.
I prepared a point by point response to your post, but then thought about those papers I signed about conflict of interest, release of sensitive or damaging information, etc. etc. Since it is a gray area and this is Usenet and not worthy of taking a chance, I deleted it all. However, my opinion, formed as an individual who ran an operation that made a high volume of table saws, remains the same. And your opinion is based on.......

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Frank Boettcher wrote:

How much it matters turns on the antecedent for 'they'. if 'they' are people who make the news by winning trivial cases then I was right and you presented a reason why I was right. If the antecedent for 'they' was all of the people who filed, then I was wrong for the reasons you presented.
I apologize for the ambiguity.
Now, you are also concened with the trangential issue of importance to the defendant, right? This is tangential to the discusison, because it is achange in direction of the discusion, not because it is unimportant.
Here is one way 'it' matters to the defendant: It affects the dollar amount at which the decision is made to defend rather than to settle. The more likely it is that the defendant will lose, the more that defendant will be willing to pay to settle out-of-court.
That is why limit on punitive damages encourage insurance companies to lowball legitimate claims. The statutory limit on punitives limits their exposure if they act in bad faith. And companies who act in good faith can thereby find themselves financially uncompetative with those that do not.
OTOH, companies that justifiably fight fraudulent claims to the bitter end rack up legal fees that also make them financially uncompetative.
Beter enforcement of the prohibitions on perpetrating a fraud on the court would help but that's a difficult area.

The question you pose above is about a different aspect of the subject than were the statements you challenged. I don't dispute the veracity of your points, I just observe that they are not contradictory with mine.
You questioned two statements.
One, was that the frequency of table saw accidents was probably much higher than the frequency of lawsuits stemming from such accidents. The other was that one seldom hears about plaintiffs with seemingly trivial complaints winning large judgements because such cases are rare. I already addressed the second above.
Now back to the first:
You ignore the possibility that most _accidents_ never got your attention in the first place. THAT was the point I was making and as you will recall, expressed thus: "For every meritless suit there may be ten or more equally injured people who lack the chutzpah to sue."

That is based on four tablesaw injuries with which I am personally familiar and several that have been related here--none of those involved a lawsuit.
Correct me if am wrong but you were not in a position to know how many people were injured, only how many sued, right?
--

FF


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On 26 Oct 2006 12:56:19 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@spamcop.net wrote:

Well that certainly qualifies you as an expert on the two points I make.
The first is that in this thread and others, I strongly suspect, that certain individuals are posting information about their personal knowledge or involvement with table saw hand injuries that, when projected to a total population of table saw hand injuries is significantly more than the reality. The posts, I believe, are in many cases, simply trolls. They are generally posted with no authentication. I believe I'm right on this, and I sincerely hope I'm right.
Secondly, I indicated that you were in error in your statement about the population of suits and who might have the propensity to do so. I will offer no more information about what I know to support the statement for reasons previously mentioned.
You certainly may hold and post any opinion you wish. And those that haven't become completely bored with this thread and continue to follow it may draw their own conclusions.
Frank
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Frank Boettcher wrote:

You are correct if you suppose I have no first-hand knowledge of any such suits.

That's cool.
--

FF


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She??
The OP stated "I've probably cared for close to 1000 table saw injuries in my career". Career... not in a year. If he has been practicing for 10 years, that would only be 100 a year...
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Nevermind... I missed what you were specificly replying to. :)
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wrote:

Do you really need to question the number of injuries. If you really want some idea just have a look through this ng and other woodworking forums to see the number of posts about near misses and not so near misses. I see a posting about an injury/near miss at least twice a week. Now take into account the the vast majority of woodworkers who do not have internet access or subscribe to this ng and the number of injuries grows quite considerably.
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access
considerably.
Twice a week? You must look at a lot of other forums besides this one. I sure don't see that kind of frequency here. What are you calling injuries and near misses though? Many of the things that have been posted here about problems people have gotten into would not have been eliminated by a blade guard.
--

-Mike-
snipped-for-privacy@alltel.net
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Actually I find a majority of the injuries could only be eliminated by a Idiot Guard. They are mostly results from ppl trying to do things they shouldn't be doing on a saw, or doing it the wrong way.

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Absolutely correct. But, us show me a person that is incapable of making a mistake or doing some something stupid and I'll call him God.
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When I cut my thumb in 1989 the ER doctor indicated that he saw TS injuries at least daily.
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Doug Miller wrote:

Bingo!
It is astonishing how many people (the "I have to see the spinning blade to know it's there crowd") indicate they haven't figured that out.
--

FF


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I use one with a splitter because it is safer than without. When cutting dados--no guard.
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Samson wrote:

I use mine (except for dados).
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I don't use a blade gaurd becuase they tend to get in the way and don't allow for free hand cuts because you can't see where your cutting. I given a lot of thaught to investing in a good gaurd though that was designed properly instead of a cheap piece of plastic that is shipped with the saw and the manufacterer knows your going to toss. I've learned the hard way twice. Once while ripping some oak the wood kicked back and sent my middle finger tip through the saw a few years later while working I had my sweet shirt get caught, I wasn't hurt but the only way to explain it is.
"I was leaning over the saw when someone "karate chopped" the back of my neck" the shirt got yanked hard and fast against my neck. The only reason I caught it was because it had happened to my uncle years earlier and this is how he discribed it. He was looking around the shop for some jocker, and didn't catch it until he stopped for a coffee.
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wrote:

The main thing they "get in the way" of is sticking your fingers in the blade. I don't know about you, but I *like* anything that gets in the way of that.

Nobody with any good sense does freehand cuts on a table saw anyway. That's Table Saw Safety Rule Number One. It's *very* dangerous, just *begging* for a kickback or worse. Save the freehand stuff for the bandsaw or scrollsaw.

You should first give a lot of thought to learning how to use your saw safely.

And the cause of this was -- ? Were you doing a freehand cut, by any chance? Was there a splitter installed on the saw? I'll bet not -- since the factory blade guard on most saws is integral with the splitter, when you removed the guard, you *also* removed the single most important component in preventing kickbacks: the splitter.

I guess nobody ever taught either you or your uncle not to wear loose-fitting clothing while operating power tools. Or not to lean or reach over power tools while they're in operation.
Has it occurred to you yet that your shirt would not have come in contact with the blade if you hadn't removed the blade guard?
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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"Doug Miller" wrote in message
"HotRod" wrote:

blade.
that.
That had most of the earmarks of a David Eisan type, joke troll.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/06
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