Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig

Page 4 of 4  
J. Clarke wrote:

I don't think a stub tenon will support much weight w/o glue? Stub tenons are common in cabinet door construction.
I don't own a biscuit machine, don't plan on buying one. I'm still wondering if I should spend the cash on a decent rail and stile set for my shaper. Having said that though, it appears that a properly fitted biscuit joint is comparable to a properly fitted M&T joint. Reading Robotoys article:
http://www.woodworking.org/WC/GArchive98/Abstract/abstract1.html
I noted that a guy that makes exterior doors and gates has found after 3 1/2 years of using plate joinery that he has had NO failures. That would indicate that while M&T may be stronger, plate joints are strong enough for most applications.
--
Jack
Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org /
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Also, one must do a proper M&T joint for it to have all this 'magic' strength. A poorly fitted, poorly proportioned M&T can be quite fragile.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 06:48:53 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy

Do you know why I am convinced that Bruno Hauptmann did not kidnap the Lindbergh baby? Because he, when shown the crudely made ladder that was allegedly used to gain access to the child's room, stated that it could not be possible that he had made that ladder, "Because I am a carpenter!"
Why do I use mortise and tenon joinery, and why do I take great care with the proportions, machining and gluing? Because, "I am a cabinetmaker!"
Next case.
Regards,
Tom Watson http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 /
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Robatoy wrote:

I watched Norm build an exterior door out of like 2" Mahogany and he used floating tenons. He made 3/8" mortises 2 1/2 deep in the rails and styles. He then glued in the floating tenons in each style. They were a perfect fit in thickness, but had about a 1/4" play on each side of the mortise. He said that was not important... I guess he is right but I never saw that done before. More often, I've seen the tenon sides rounded over for a prefect fit in the router made mortise.
Just thought I'd mention that...
BTW, the only hard part in making the exterior door was paying for the wood, which Norm said was "expensive". My guess is it was just a bit under a wheelbarrow full in Obama money. Certainly not even a billion...
--
Jack
Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org /
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Upscale wrote:

They did one a month or so ago in Popular Woodworking, if I'm not mistaken, comparing the strength of different joints. The Domino did not perform very well. I'm just not anywhere where I can go back and look at the moment.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
: Upscale wrote:
:>> Domino. Ooh look, it makes loose tenon joints easy! Sure, but does it :>> make them strong? Not according to all the tests I've seen. :> :> Perhaps, you'd like to quote those tests depicting some of those weaker :> joints? : They did one a month or so ago in Popular Woodworking, if I'm not : mistaken, comparing the strength of different joints. The Domino did : not perform very well. I'm just not anywhere where I can go back and : look at the moment.
Their initial 2007 review was extremely positive:
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/Domino_System_From_Festool /
They also gave it a "best new tool" award a couple of years ago.
I couldn't find a strength test (or more recent review) on their site.
    -- Andy Barss
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
: Upscale wrote:
:>> Domino. Ooh look, it makes loose tenon joints easy! Sure, but does it :>> make them strong? Not according to all the tests I've seen. :> :> Perhaps, you'd like to quote those tests depicting some of those weaker :> joints? : They did one a month or so ago in Popular Woodworking, if I'm not : mistaken, comparing the strength of different joints. The Domino did : not perform very well. I'm just not anywhere where I can go back and : look at the moment.
Found it: Fine Woodworking, January 2009. http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ToolGuide/ToolGuidePDF.aspx?id1926 http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/FWNPDF/011203036.pdf
and letters and discussion here:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ToolGuide/ToolGuidePDF.aspx?id1926
There's another interesting discussion here, which includes a suggestion that the culprit is the indentations on the dominos:
http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?action=printpage ;topicp83.0
    -- Andy Barss
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

When I glue up solid wood panels I pay a lot of attention to stock prep. Eliminate all cup, crook and bow on the jointer, or with a plane. Get everything to the same thickness by making a final pass through the planer or sander using the same setup for all the stock to be machined. Rip all the pieces with a blade that will give you a glue line edge.
I machine biscuit slots about two inches in from a line that coincides with what the finished ends will be and about every twelve inches throughout the length. I use one biscuit on the centerline for boards up to about 5/4 and a pair of biscuits set no less than 1/4 from the faces above that thickness.
Here is where I differ from what some guys do: In my opinion, and it is only an opinion but it is based on observation and experience; I don't count on the biscuits for strength, I think the glue line provides the strength. I use the biscuits to reduce the clamp time so that I can have a quicker turn around time on the glued up panels. I also don't count on the biscuits for alignment, except in a very rough sense. I use a Lamello biscuit joiner and Lamello biscuits, which I believe to be more consistent in their properties than others that I have tried - and I still can't count on perfect alignment. So, what I do is drive finish nails into one edge of each of the boards , more or less in the center of the edge of the board and more or less on the centerline between the biscuit slots. Then I nip the heads off, leaving about a heavy eighth inch standing proud of the board edge. When I carefully assemble the boards together during a later step the pins will keep the boards even along their faces as I apply clamping pressure. It doesn't take very much time and it works.
I almost always use cauls top and bottom - this provides my final check for flatness of the glue up - but the pins help avoid all the beating and hollering that too often goes on at this point.
As always,
YMMV
Regards,
Tom Watson http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 /
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

How do you get the pins to go into the spot that creates perfect alignment? The slightest pressure up or down could create an extremely shallow "V", resulting into slightly misaligned boards. I don't know if I'm explaining myself properly, but if you don't clamp with exact even pressure, you might get misaligned boars. I.e. What do you mean by "carefully assemble the boards together".

I would think that the pins might create some beating and hollering rather than avoiding it. Sorry, I don't get it???
I am also happy to note that after a gazillion years of people saying that they use biscuits "for alignment" in panel glue ups, that everybody is fessing up that they actually cause a slight misalignment. So it's not only me or my biscuit joiner or my biscuits. :-)
Luigi
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 14:28:15 -0700 (PDT), Luigi Zanasi

I have the boards resting flat on the bottom cauls and I push them together, one at a time. It doesn't seem to be a problem in practice. I find that most misalignment problems show up when you try to clamp the panel assembly up. The way that I do this is to put both the top and bottom cauls in place and apply moderate pressure with the clamps that go on the cauls, with the intent of keeping the panel flat.. Then I apply the side clamping pressure. What I see too many guys do is apply the side pressure before the cauls are engaged in keeping stuff planar. Then, if they don't use pins, the joint lines creep and they have so much clamping pressure applied that the caul clamps have a hard time making up the difference. That's when most of the beating and hollering occurs.

Well, it's true in a general sense. It is a lot easier to align a face frame to a carcase using biscuits than it is to just slap on some glue and try to clamp it up. Of course, you still need the judicious application of force to get things into final alignment. That's why I own a three pound dead blow. My goal is to get panels or assemblies like the face frame to carcase to line up good enough that a few scrapes with a cabinet scraper is all that is needed.
Regards,
Tom Watson http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 /
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
<snip>

Agreed, that's why I use cauls & gave up on biscuits. & it works most of the time, some time with a judicious application of the rubber mallet in may case.
But I do see your nail/pins also having a use in preventing the slick wet glued boards from slipping lengthwise.
Thanks Tom.
Luigi
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Luigi Zanasi wrote:

I find it amazing anyone even uses a biscuit joiner, let alone a $700 Festool domino? I always knew they were not needed in the least for strength in panel glue ups, but thought they would work nicely for alignment, but knew from experience I could glue up table tops and door panels easily with just clamps and cauls.
I guess thats why I never bought one, but really, I like tools and could have talked myself into buying one eventually. This thread pretty much convinced me I don't need one at all. Sort of like a nail gun, I really, really want one (two), but have no use for it (them)...
--
Jack
Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org /
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

LOL, No you certainly don't need any of them but they do make life easier and speed up production. Think about trading your TS in for a hand saw. ;~) The biscuit joiner is mostly helpful for alignment but does in deed add significant strength when gluing end grain. The biscuit adds strength to 45 degree mitered joints and to butt joints. I have had 2 biscuit joiners and eventually got the Domino. Now I have a machine that does what the biscuit joiner did and a machine that affords me the opportunity to quickly and easily make floating tennon joints which do indeed add lots of strength to any joint

;~) I started with one finish nailer 20 years ago, I have added a palm nailer, brad nailer, air stapler, pinner, and framing nailer since. Can I do the work with out them? Absolutely. If one broke today would I replace it? Probably before the end of the day. It's one of those deals where you wonder how you did with out them after you start using them. The specialized tools open up more opportunities.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Tom Watson wrote:

At this point, I definitely have no need for anything but glue, clamps and cauls. Hardly need cauls if everything is prepped to perfection.

Wow!
Yet you put one (or two) every 12"?

Not sure how that helps much, but OK. I generally do other things while the glue dries, and there is seldom enough time for me to get other stuff done. Also, if the glue isn't dry enough, I don't think I would depend on biscuits much to keep things together...
I also don't count on the biscuits for alignment, except in a very rough sense. I use a Lamello

So then the whole purpose of biscuits is to reduce gluing time, because alignment ain't it, and strength ain't it?
So, what I do is drive finish nails into one edge of each of the boards , more or less in the center of the edge of the board and more or less on the centerline between

Yes, that sounds like an idea. Personally, I like cauls and clamps, and really like as little metal as possible in my woodwork. I think the nail pins you use would be particularly useful if one had no planer, or sander to insure perfect equal thickness of the boards and needed one face flat, and the other could vary a bit. Then a domino, or pins would be helpful to get one flat face.

A little beating and hollering gives a piece character, or at least keeps the wife and kids out of your way:-)
--
Jack
Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org /
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Jack consider also that when thinking about a joint even an edge joint we typically do not consider lthe board having a less than desirable edge. I work with a lot of red oak and the edge of a perfectly straight board may very well have grain that runs at an angle to the edge and eventually will open up on the edge of the board. It is true that glue is most often stronger than the wood itself so the joint line is unlikely to break. BUT the wood itself is often weaker than the glue line and the extra tennon and or biscuit in that joint adds strength to the board in from the joint line . I have seen glued up boards break right beside the joint line along a weak grain line. The better tennon or biscuit will help to reinforce the weaker areas of of the board near the joint line.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

It's for face alignment during the glue up, not strength afterward. There's nothing scientific about it. For an edge joint 3' or 4' long, 3 biscuits "feels" too few; 4 biscuits works out to about a foot or so between each; 5 feels a bit over done.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

The Lamello biscuits are compressed beech and are intended to be used with a white or yellow glue (aliphatic resin). The moisture from the glue expands the biscuits to the degree that the clamps can be removed in about half the usual time without the panel relaxing and damaging the partially cured glue line.
This is important in a situation where you are making a number of panels and want to keep production moving. I usually set up four gluing stations and by the time I have the fourth panel in clamps the first panel is ready to be removed from clamps.
BTW - biscuits have been around far longer than you might think. I've disassembled door casings from the 30's that had what were referred to as "Lemon Splines", essentially the same as biscuits but they were machined with horizontal slotters and the lemon splines were not compressed. Theses mitered joints were still in very good condition.
Regards,
Tom Watson http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 /
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

<snip>
Thank you Sonny for starting a thread that ended with more than 50 replies dedicated to woodworking, including a relatively reasoned debate on the merit of various joints.
Thanks, Luigi
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.