Beginners Syndrome

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What good would it do to soak a rusty piece of metal in water?
Puckdropper
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Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

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On 30 Nov 2015 23:09:38 GMT Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:

water is the solvent for rust and does much good it will really loosen up the rust
i treated a table saw this way and it worked very well i used a putty knife to scrape away most of the rust then a wire brush with more water
then dried it well and applied mineral oil let that set a while then wiped off again with dry towel
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On 11/30/15 6:08 PM, Electric Comet wrote:

If you use a phosphoric acid cleaner, like Boeshield Rust Free, there would be no scrubbing or scraping necessary. Let science to the hard work.
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-MIKE-

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On Mon, 30 Nov 2015 19:03:55 -0600

seems to contradict the instruction from the maker
quote "Directions. For light rust on steel or cast iron, spray RustFree™ on a rag and wipe surface. Do not spray directly on surface, as it may cause spotting. For heavy rust, spray directly on rusted surface and scrub with Scotch-Brite™ pad. Wipe off and repeat if necessary. RustFree™ works best above 70° F.
CAUTION! RustFree™ is acidic and should be used with care.
Test on hidden area before use. Can cause spotting on cast iron and steel. Rinse off painted surfaces thoroughly and neutralize with soap and water. Do not use on guns or black oxide tools. Can dull paint and plastics. Not for spot cleaning of table tops. Do not use on polished cast iron surfaces."
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On 12/1/15 10:37 AM, Electric Comet wrote:

First of all, I was referring to your words, "a putty knife to scrape away most of the rust then a wire brush." That's considerably more than simply rubbing the surface with a Scotch pad. It's akin to 40grit belt sander vs. 220 sandpaper to knock off the nubs from cured lacquer.
Using the Scotch-Brite™ pads essentially ensures the acid is getting to all the rust. I have found it to be unnecessary for about 80% of my rust removal.
Seriously, rehabbing old power tools is a hobby of mine. Usually when I get one, whatever metal surface isn't painted with be deeply rusted. I've tried EVERY technique purported on the internet short of sandblasting. The only ones that work involve phosphoric acid because of the chemical and physical reactions it has with rust.
When I first started, I went with RustFree's directions and found the scrubbing unnecessary. For tough, deep rust, all that is necessary is to let the product sit a minute or two longer. The reason they tell you to scrub is the same reason they tell you to NOT use it on polished surfaces. Because it will cause spotting. The spotting is the acid somewhat "etching" the metal. Metal workers with use phosphoric acid as a metal priming technique to give the metal some "bite" for powder coating. But that's all it will do. It's not an aggressive or dangerous acid like hydrochloric. That's mostly why they suggest scrubbing; get it on and get it off quick. It does work fast, by the way.
So, here are the conclusions I came up with for using it. The places you have deep seated rust on old tools are NOT going to end up being a smooth polished surface anyway. They are likely cast parts, that have a rough texture to begin with. Like on a saw: the trunnion, the underside of the table, etc. Any parts you that should be smooth, polished surfaces-- like the tables tops of a saw or jointer, or chisels-- are going to need ground out, sanded, and polished anyway. So any "pitting," spotting, or etching done by the phosphoric acid is a moot point, because it'll be sanded out in the process of smoothing out a polished surface.
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-MIKE-

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On 11/30/15 3:19 PM, Electric Comet wrote:

Bullshit. Best "cure" for rust is phosphoric acid which is the active ingredient in any good rust cleaner, including naval jelly.

What is your constant aversion to punctuation? I skip over half the stuff you post because it's barely readable. When I do happen to read it, it's generally BS like in this post and that whole "caul" debacle.
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-MIKE-

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On Mon, 30 Nov 2015 19:01:17 -0600

as always i prefer the simple and cheap solution
and if i get water on other parts it will dry
not sure what concentration of acid is in those products but acid is usually not good for paint or wood etc.
so no cost no gloves no hazardous cleanup no effect on other parts
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On 12/1/15 10:16 AM, Electric Comet wrote:

Why do you refuse to "learn" anything from anyone in here? If you're so worried about those four issues, then I suggest you get out of woodworking altogether because they are all pretty much daily parts of the craft.
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-MIKE-

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On 11/29/2015 5:32 PM, Spalted Walt wrote:

Good catch. That guy used to be on one of my cable stations, I'd forgotten about him.
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Jack
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On Sun, 29 Nov 2015 22:32:33 +0000

shop looks too clean i do not trust it i think he is wasting time on hb or #2 and should be using hh
hh requires more forcee and usually means that you get a lighter mark that is easier to sand offf
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For me, its more difficult to sand off the impression of a visible 2H mark than to erase a visible #1 or 2B mark. In drafting (preCAD), we were taught to use the darker #1 or B for reliable blueprinting.
HB or #2 were acceptable, but HH or #3 risked tearing the cheap paper to get a decent line.
I also just want to point out this woodworking "Beginners Syndrome" thread has evolved into the finer points of drafting pencils.
Scott in Dunedin FL
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On Mon, 30 Nov 2015 15:37:28 -0500

works for me i press the same as i always do and get a lighter mark with less lead on the wood

good one
probably devolved is a better choice for the pun but still good
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On 11/29/2015 3:43 PM, Jack wrote:

I have some old drafting pencils. I use regular pencils, knife cuts, and these. http://imgur.com/Gub1CJR The black thing is a sharpener. You put the pencil in and allow it to circle the center. It's a very fine grit on a metal cylinder, and is made in Germany. Got all this for $1 at a garage sale about 8 years ago. I like to use them, they are 2mm , smaller than the rockler, but they are great.
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On 11/29/2015 5:39 PM, woodchucker wrote:

time I looked, not 2mm.
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On 11/29/2015 4:39 PM, woodchucker wrote:

That is my sharpener! and a few of the pencils look like some of mine too.
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says...

You suck <g>.
They don't make those all-metal lead pointers anymore. The plastic ones aren't heavy enough to stay put without being hand-held or clamped and when you clamp them they tend to warp and drag. You've got well over a hundred bucks worth of stuff there.
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On 11/29/2015 6:31 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

Thanks :-) I didn't know how much it was worth, but I like them. The sharpener is the rolls royce of sharpeners for sure. It is sooooo smooth, and a pleasure to use.
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On 11/29/2015 5:39 PM, woodchucker wrote:

These are not smaller, Rockler is also 2mm lead, although the pen size looks thinner. The Rockler "looks" a bit more substantial, and the sharpener is way smaller, about a square inch in size, and only the lead goes in the sharping hole. You extend the lead out of the pen a bit to sharpen it, then extract it back to working length. Otherwise, those also look like a good mechanical pencil for a wood worker.
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Jack
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Don't look for "pencil". Look for "lead holder".
<http://www.dickblick.com/products/koh-i-noor-toison-dor-lead-holder/ <http://www.staples.com/Staedtler-Mars-Technico-2-mm-Lead-Holder-2-mm- Pack-of-2-/product_1722242> Leads available (note--"Turquoise" is the brand name, not the color): <http://www.dickblick.com/products/prismacolor-turquoise-leads/ Sharpener:
<http://www.dickblick.com/products/staedtler-mars-lead-pointer/ <http://www.dickblick.com/products/staedtler-mars-sandpaper-lead- pointer/> This is all old-school pre-CAD drafting equipment.

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On 11/29/2015 6:24 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

Aha, never thought of that one. This is more like it, I like the 2m lead, that is a good size for a woodworker. The koh-i-noor lead holder looks OK, but more designed for the draftsman than a cabinet maker, as it appears thinner, doesn't have the cross hatched metal finger grip. Also, it is $8, the sharpener is $8, and the lead is $11. That's $27 for what Rockwell sells you for $9.
One more thing, while I'm not a fan of Rockler because they seem overpriced for a lot of stuff, I do recognize they are the only woodworkers shop in my area, that I can walk in and put hands on stuff I want, and they carry lots of specialty stuff you can't get locally. Because of this, I do buy stuff from them, as long as it is good quality, which most of their stuff is, and is not so overpriced I'd be stupid to buy it. Usually I buy there when a 20% sale gets the prices down to a reasonable amount. This cabinetmakers pencil, specifically made for cabinetmakers is a good example of something you can't find anywhere else.
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Jack
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