Band Saw Gloat

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On 01/13/2010 02:18 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:

It would be historically accurate for Shaker furniture. They often used through-tenons even with quite narrow mortises.
Chris
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"Chris Friesen" wrote:

------------------------------ OK, no problem; however, a thru tenon presents a completely different machining task.
A blind mortice vs. thru mortice.
Lew
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Well, the last time I did that it was for a set of exterior shutters. Yes, I know that a stub tenon with good glue will hold about as well as the strength of the wood will allow. But for things like shutters and kitchen or bathroom cabinet doors, which are subject to lots of moisture, I like the strength of a long tenon. Chairs as well - I've repaired lots of antiques in which the glue had failed but the long tenons still kept things together. Exterior doors.
Frankly, I consider stub tenons to be a bit of a shortcut favored only because they allow you to cut the joint with a single shaper pass. But then. that's just me.
John Martin
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No,,, the mortiser attachment works differently. The chisel which receives most of the load is attached to the quill IIRC and the bit simply spins inside like most any other bit. A shaper would exert side pressure.... BUT mortisers tend to be quite a bit of extra trouble when used on a DP. Putting it on adjusting and removing it is a multi step precess that takes time For me that would get real old Quick. I would advise a dedicated mortiser to leace your DP free to drill holes. Dedicated mortisers tend to be relatively inexpensive.

(Amazon.com product link shortened)63349381&sr=8-13
I think I would confirm that with Delta... it still shows on their site.. But it looks like the 16.5" has most of the features that the 17" has.

I would not say to avoid the Rikon, DP's tend to not be complicated as long as the bearing run out is OK. I doubt Rikon has problems with that. BUT IIRC the Rikon had a pretty short quill travel and although the table seemed large it did not tilt like the Delta.
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TY for pointing that out. Good point. But, isn't that a "shaper" bit in the 4th and 5th pictures at the bottom of the page??
http://www.deltaportercable.com/Products/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID 685
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wrote:

It's a sanding drum. And yes, it would experience some lateral pressure similar to what a shaper bit would experience. However, the lateral pressure would be much less. One other thing to consider too. Drill presses operate at much slower RPMs than shapers and routers. I doubt whether a drill press could spin a shaper bit fast enough to effectively cut wood.
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snipped-for-privacy@teksavvy.com wrote in

I've dropped the occasional router bit into the drill press, and they work ok for drilling holes. (I don't have any Forstner style bits yet, so if I need a flat hole I've got to use the router bit.) They don't spin fast enough to do any real cutting of wood, except in the smallest dimension.
It seems the velocity of the router bit is necessary not only for cutting, but for clearing the chips out, too.
Puckdropper
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No. A sanding drum. And what upscale said, a sanding drum is not as tough on a DP as a shaper bit would be. Remember the sanding drum does not dig out large chunks of wood by comaprison as a shaper bit would. Tpically shaper bits have 3-5 contact points where the blade hits the work, that shock would be hard on the bearings. Pressure on the bearing would not be as damaging as hammering on the bearing.
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Thank you, and Upscale, for explaining the dynamics of a shaper bit. I've never used one.
Bill
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Yep. I think the 17" is better though :)
Thank you for filling me in about mortisers.
Bill
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1/2" better? LOL
I had a 36" radial DP prior so I had to get used to the idea of a reach of 8.5" in the 17" DP vs. what I had, 18" on the 36" DP. It was mostly a mental obstacle I think as I have not had a problem drilling what I need. The older DP was a bench top with a tilting head rather than a tilting table however I was limited on drilling depth and the length/height of the object to be drilled.
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No, the 17-950L and 17-959L Both have the same (very nice) table. The 17-959L has 3/4 HP instead of 1/2 HP, and 4.875" quill length instead of 3.875". It can also be wired for 240 (I'm not sure how valuable that is), and has 16 speeds instead of 12. Of these differences, the quill lengh and the power seem the most significant to me (in that order).
Best, Bill

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Your comments have left me thinking about "drilling deep holes" and quill length for a few days. By deep, I don't mean deeper than about 6". I ran into the concept of a "drill bit extender". That left me suspicious. Are any folks using these to compensate for short quill length of their DP (with good results)? If they work so well, it sort of means one doesn't need to be as concerned about quill lenth, right? I guess it may depend on one's tolerences...I'd expect the drill to make a bigger hole coming out than going in (in fact, bigger than usual).
Bill
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Perhaps I don't understand you point, but a long drill bit doesn't make the bit move any further (the purpose of a long quill travel). You could move the table to meet the chuck, I suppose though that's a lot sloppier.
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

I was thinking that any run-out effect would be proportional to the distance that the drill bit is extended into the work, and the extender would magnify this since I would expect it to be an imperfect connector.
Bill
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If the bit is shorther than the quill travel naturally you would be limited to the bit length for drilling holes. There are bit extenders but those typically are of no help on a DP, the extenders are larger in diameter than the drill bit and will not go inside the hole. Typically I want a longer quill travel so that I can drill out Pen centers and have a little excess room to manuver.
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Leon wrote:

Good point.

Unless you are using a Forstner bit--which I thought might be typical for deep holes. Of course, your "pen center" example seems like a counter-example. I'm not sure of the smallest Forster bit size--I'll look it up. I assume one could get one with 1/4" shaft (but I haven't looked yet).

Yes, that occurred to me while I have been thinking about this. The extra quill length buys one convenience in set up!
Thank you! Bill
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Ah Bill,,,, you got me there, doh!
Of course, your "pen center" example seems like a

IIRC my set goes down to 1/4" diameter but the shank is 3/8"
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I do not recall hearing of anyone using a drill press as a shaper. I suspect that would be too slow to provide a clean cut.(Which is why router bits do not work well in a DP)
I have read that even sanding drums are not recommended for any DP where the chuck is mounted to a Morse taper quill. My understanding is that the side load causes the chuck to loosen and come off. Probably exciting enough with a sanding drum, but I think I'll step outside it you want to try it with shaper knives...
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Lots of drill presses have a top speed of 5,000 or so RPM. Not quite up to the speed of most shapers, but enough so that you can get a decent cut.
You are right about the side load being a problem, though.
Many drill presses have a spindle with a female Morse taper, and use an arbor with a male Morse taper and a male Jacobs taper to mount the chuck. Typically, there is no drawbar holding the arbor to the spindle - and the side load imposed by a shaper cutter or a sanding drum can loosen the arbor from the spindle.
The chuck on most drill presses has a female Jacobs taper, and mounts on a male Jacobs taper on the abovementioned arbor or directly on the spindle. Some have a threaded locking collar which holds the Jacopbs tapers together. Most don't, though. Although the Jacobs tapers are not intended to be frequently separated, the short length of the Jacobs tapers make them more susceptible to separating from side loading than the Morse tapers.
Finally, even if the chuck is firmly connected to the spindle, a Jacobs chuck is not designed to take heavy side loads. Heavy side loads can cause a cutter to walk its way right out of the chuck jaws. Take a look at any milling machine whose owner regularly uses end mills in the drill chuck, and you'll usually find that those end mills have left tracks in the vise and mill table.
I have an old Delta Milwaukee 14" drill press, which uses interchangeable spindles. The usual spindle has a male Jacobs 33 taper, and a drill chuck stays on it. I have another spindle with a 1/2" hole in it and set screws - that one can take router bits or bushings for mortising bits. Another spindle has a 5/16" shaft, threaded on the end, for a line of special small shaper cutters. Another has a flange and a short 1/2" shaft, threaded on the end, for cup-type grinding wheels. Finally, some have female Morse #1 and #2 ends - some solid and some with the Morse socket carried on a Jacobs taper. Lots of variations, depending on the job.
John Martin
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