Been in production use for 2 years in the small building I was at. I was told the main factory had another 12 of them. Last summer they sold all the Powermatics and Unisaws (10) at an auction.
They loved the saw, and it had made two saves for them in the last 2 years, both ended up with a tiny scar after a band-aid was applied. The workman's compensation claims would have been HUGE.
Alan
Since this is a controversial subject it would be appropriate for you to name the organization that you speak of and provide contact information so that others may check for themselves.
Frank
In a shop where they are using uiniform materials in a repetitive process that makes sense. What happens the first time Harry Homeowner decides to chop up some plastic or EEEK, aluminum?
Some of us do other thinghs beside fine cabinetry.
It also makes me wonder how many of these "saw accidents" were guys on a metal framing job/trim job with "chopsaw" or just the guy you see on a ladder with a skilsaw or cutting 2x4s on his knee. You see that if you are around construction sites very much..
I think it was snipped-for-privacy@aol.com who stated:
Uhhh . . . I suppose Harry puts the saw in "Bypass Mode" to temporarily disable the brake and does his aluminum cutting, perhaps? I don't think plastic cutting is an issue (I read the owner's manual on the SawStop Web site). What is "EEEK"?
The SawStop doesn't have anything to do with either of those situations, does it? Duh.
The SawStop would cut plastic just fine. I don't know about aluminum but it will cut embedded nails and staples without triggering the stop action. Since the SawStop is cabinet saw (a very good one from the reviews), I don't see the point of the construction comments.
I know of woodworkers who have lost fingers to table saws because of a moments distraction. The SawStop would have prevented those accidents.
And no, I don't work for SawStop or sell them. I'm one of those Harry Homeowners.
Jess.S
I was just wondering how many "accidents" in the statistic they used are also irrelevant.
Yeah, good point. Especially the second paragraph sounds more like an advertisement to me.
For sure it is a valid question. Statistics are very easily portrayed as one wishes. For example - The death rate among persons over 63 who quit smoking is higher than those who continue to smoke. This is a true and valid statistic. Thus, statistics can be very misleading. Most of the statistics we see in our daily lives are worthless because we don't have associated information. USA Today likes to print fancy looking charts and graphs to go with a particular story. However, try to find the confidence interval or standard deviation to go with the data. The charts are nice, but unless we can see how the data was prepared and the variable, it means very little.
Frank - we've made exactly the same decision here... replacing all of our table saws with Sawstops... (14 at least, probably more...)
I hope none of them ever goes off - but I can almost guarantee at least one will eventually. I can also tell you from personal experience that the fine for at fault accidents (and this is determined by a trial) is 100K. That does not include Workmans Comp, legal fees, or management time.
I can also add that all of our staff really like the saw too...
I don't find two "saves" to be a stretch at all...
Statistically - an invidual isn't likely to lose a digit, and makes decisions accordingly. Statistically as a corporation, we're likely to have an accident with the number of saws we have and the number of users - so we make our decisions accordingly.
Cheers -
Rob Lee
Good for you, Rob, and pardon my ignorance in the event you are a regular poster to this newsgroup, well known to all but me, but who is "we"?
Frank
| Good for you, Rob, and pardon my ignorance in the event you are a | regular poster to this newsgroup, well known to all but me, but who | is "we"?
Rob is the President of Lee Valley Tools Ltd, and generally lurks more than he posts.
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA
Rob runs Lee Valley Tools.
Chris
Robin is president of Lee Valley Tools who I believe are the largest hand tools retailer in Canada. Request a catalogue online and I expect you'll become a customer.
Hi Frank -
I'm just a guy who doesn't like staff with with stitches.... :)
(As noted - Lee Valley Tools.)
We have 13 stores - each with a woodshop (for staff to use, and for building displays, giving seminars etc...). Our manufacturing and R&D shops also have saws... Should also note that we've stopped using dado sets too... nothing wrong with them, there are just safer ways to achieve the same thing in our environment (many users, multiple skill levels).
I personally have an Inca with a sliding table (and riving knife) - so won't be buying a Sawstop.
Cheers -
Rob
I have heard of this happening several times from posters in the group. LeeValley has gone this route and I would not be suprised if WoodCraft follows that trend now that they actually sell the SawStop.
I have only heard of 1 complaint/problem with the SawStop having a false positive. SawStop corrected the problem and IIRC the person having the problem was reported to have later had a positive trigger that saved him from injury. Do a DAGS to locate the post in this group. Other than that I have only heard and read praise about the machine from ACTUAL users.
In a Political Science class I once had it was pointed out that year after year there is a proven direct correlation between the consumption of ice cream and the incidence of rape. Look at any year and you will see that starting in January as the total amount of ice cream per week or month increases, so do the number of reported rapes. Some might be tempted to proclaim that this is proof that the consumption of ice cream causes rape and decide that we should outlaw ice cream. I suppose others might conclude that rapists must consume vast quantities of ice cream after doing their crime and thus police should stake out Ben & Jerrys to look for rapists.
Others might be tempted to note that both ice cream consumption and rape tend to increase and decrease as outside temperatures vary.
I believe Mark Twain noted that there are three kinds of lies...lies, damned lies and statistics.
Dave hall
I think the machine itself is great. The saw appears well-made, operates smoothly, generally a nice piece of equipment. The stopping mechanism is impressive to watch (saw it at a wood show).
At the moment it's too expensive for me as a home user (half again as much as a made-in-Canada General?), and I think the political machinations are despicable.
Chris
Not only that-- the way they scale their charts is almost always extremely misleading. Say, for example, they've got some stat that's gone from 1012 up to 1097 over some period of time. That's under 8.5%, not very impressive really. So they start the Y axis of the damned chart at 1000 instead of zero and end at 1100. Now the number goes from near the bottom to near the top, and it looks like whatever they're reporting has octupled. It drives me crazy.
Very true that is why I asked. I used to crunch numbers and I would always ask what they wanted the chart to look like. You can take exactly the same dataset and make the answer pretty much whatever you want, simply by adjusting the terms of the view.
Rob,
Thanks for responding. It's good to have a substantiated claim by someone who has made the decision to move in that direction, and I hope you were not offended by my lack of recognition.
SawStop has been somewhat controversial and I've detected some trolls in the past when this subject comes up. I suspect that if, the quantity of table saw injuries that have sometimes been put on this board without substantiation were true, someone from my organization would have be in deposition twenty-four hours a day.
The controversy, in my opinion, is not in the area of advancing the technology which is a good thing, but in getting the UL/CSA standards boards or the goverment to mandate the technology and force it on every manufacturer. I'm not in favor of that.
Based on the crowd they drew at IWF this year and years past, they should be able to promote the technology without the mandate.
Frank
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