Has anyone tried BONA 'TRAFFIC' or 'MEGA' water based floor finishing products (listed here http://208.139.199.128/productspecs/index.asp )
They make some interesting durability claims here
TIA
yes, I used Mega a couple months ago on an oak floor. It works great. be sure to use their applicator. I used the 18" one. I put down the sealer first, followed by 2 coats of mega gloss. then I put down one coat of semi gloss. by using gloss except for the top coat, the clarity of the wood shows through. be sure you work FAST! the stuff works well as long as you don't dally around. the smell is only mildly objectionable to me. Most finishing products irritate my sinuses, so I'd rate the Bonakemi stuff pretty good on that score.
one last caveat: don't use Minwax stain; use the Bonakemi Dri Fast stains instead. Bonakemi states that they have adhesion issues with Minwhacks.
dave
JP wrote:
Dave, Thanks for the suggestions. I was actually considering using MinWax stain but then started getting cold feet when reading about adhesion issues.
Which DriFast stain did you use?
Also, did you sand the floors yourself? If so, drum sander? vibrating plate sander (Home Depot rental)? did you use sandpaper or screens (still trying to figure out what a 'screen' is/used).
Did you buff the floor between coats or at the end when cured? If so, how and with what?
Where did you buy the BONA products? Local? On-line? (I'm in San Jose, CA)
Many thanks,
J>yes, I used Mega a couple months ago on an oak floor. It works great.
I got the stuff at Golden State Flooring. they are supposed to only sell wholesale but if you sweet-talk them a bit, they might sell to you. Otherwise I don't know where to get it at retail. BTW, I didn't save any money by getting it at GSF.
I used Bonakemi's Dri Fast oil modified Provincial. It is nearly identical in color to Minwax's Provincial, although I like the Dri Fast's color a bit better.
I rented a floor drum sander at HD, but would recommend that you find a floor styled belt sander instead. Think of a beer can on it's side, laying on the floor. Not much surface area of the can touches the floor. That's the problem with the drum sander. As much as I tried to avoid it, I got plenty of depressions in the floor from using that sander. I started with about 40 grit, then 60, and 80 to smooth it. I also rented an edge sander which is a real PITA to use. It will create divots in the blink of an eye. Then I filled the grain and gaps with trowelable wood filler (water based) from Southern Lumber. Sanded that off the next day with a pad sander.
Stained in the morning (the easiest part of the job) and put on the first coat of Bonakemi Sealer about 5 hours later, using the 18" applicator pad from GSF.
The next day I put on a coat of Mega gloss, let that dry and then another coat.
Next day I rented a floor finisher with a pad as close to the grit as recommended (HD didn't have EXACTLY the right grit). You are supposed to use a maroon pad, but HD doesn't stock it. Scuffed up the floor with that, wiped off the dust with a damp towel and then applied the final coat: Mega Semi-Gloss. You gotta go real quick and easy if you use one of the HD rental pads, as the grit is lower than recommended. It was the Norton brand. Had I had more confidence in the quality of the sanding job I would have used gloss, but it's better to somewhat hide the defects with semi gloss, or Satin, which is too flat for my liking.
I waited over a week to put anything in the room, just to be safe. Bonakemi's tech support said emphatically don't cut the gloss with a pad; use the proper sheen product for your top coat instead.
Some tips:
Make sure you have at least a 500x2 halogen light source to let you see how the finish is going on. Without proper lighting you won't be able to tell where the finish is, after the first coat. Don't hit your popcorn ceiling like I did with the pole that the applicator pad is mounted to!! Just as I was finishing up the last section of the last coat, I hit that damned ceiling, bringing down a cascade of white particles all over the wet finish. I got most of them out by lunging for the nearest towel and dragging it through the junk. You literally have SECONDS to fix any major mistakes. A minute is an eternity with the waterborne finishes. The applicator does a great job of flowing the product onto the floor properly. I also used a standard paint pad to get the ends brushed out, as the applicator won't go all the way to the wall because it is round.
I used a bit of nylon stocking inside the pour spout to filter the material. I just poured it out of the bottle onto the floor in a "river" as suggested by Bonakemi. Works well that way. So with the stocking in the spout, you are filtering as you pour.
any questions, let me know.
MSH is the pro when it comes to floors. He gave me some great advice. You might Google our thread from a few months back. I forget the name of it...
The end result is pretty nice, but my 2 regrets are that I worked like a slave to do the job, and with rental four machines, plus the materials, I only saved a couple of hundred dollars, and the slight depressions left by the drum sander. (The pad sander used to remove the excess wood filler isn't going to remove the drum sanding boo boos.) I spent over $500 to do one room 13 x 17.
One other note: make sure you fill the whole floor with the wood filler. If you just put it one here and there to fill obvious cracks and gaps, it will look different in the areas that you spot patch, once you apply the stain. Don't leave any more filler on the floor than you absolutely have to, as it is time consuming to sand it off, and you don't want to over sand either, or the wood pores will open again.
dave
JP wrote:
Excellent instructions, but some observations from a semi-pro (I do it on the side...)
MEGA Satin is my favorite. It's almost impossible to screw up. It's so thin, that you can prcatically pour it on and walk away. Don't let the 'thin' fool you into thinking it's a bad product. It's an excellent product.
You don't need to buff between coats if you apply them less than like 40 hours apart. It says to wait 2 hours, but I typicaly go 1 hour without a problem. 2 hours is ideal, if you can though.
If you do need to buff between coats, yes, maroon pads are what you want.
Trowelable wood filler is a great idea before your last sand with the drum sander. It will show you where you screwed up and left gouges with your sanding. Go easy and feather in!
Run your edger FLAT. Never never lift it on edge unless you want some nice gouges. I only do the rough sanding with the edger, then use my
4x24" PC belt sander and random orbit sander to finish with 80 grit.Good luck, Sam
Sam, I've got a feeling that the edger that I rented at HD was less than ideal, because it had the sanding surface at a slight angle to the floor, so that only the front edge would cut. I tried to adjust the feet and couldn't move them. Should the disk have been parallel to the floor?
I was too chicken to use the drum sander AFTER the trowelable filler, but looking back I can see it would have been a hell of a lot quicker than the pad sander! :)
dave
dave
Sam Shank wrote:
When mine was in the shop one time getting new bearings and gears, I had to rent one from HD. It was a nice machine, and it worked just as you mentioned. If you run it FLAT (this is hard work we're talking about here) it works fine. It's possible that with your lack of experience it just wasn't as you had imagined. You go through LOTS and LOTS of discs. You might have to change discs every few feet (like 2 feet) on gummy finishes.
After the wood filler, I do an 80 grit sand with the drum sander, and then use a slow speed buffer with a red pad and a screen (100, 80, 120, whatever I have lots of) to close the grain before sealing.
Did you use one of those silly looking "random orbit" type square machines I've seen? I laugh every time I see one of those. I couldn't imagine those being effective. I've never used one, so maybe I'm the silly one. But, they don't look very effective. And, I could see how it would be a lot of work with that thing NOT drum sanding after the filler.
yes, the square pad sander was a major PITA. not aggressive enough. I spent hours getting the filler off.
I used only one edge sanding disc. I don't think it was set up right, but I couldn't loosen any of the roller feet so I gave up and used it the way it was. There has to be a better way...
Your way sounds much faster and more effective. IF I decide to do the floor of my study, I'll remember your methods. thanks, Sam.
dave
Sam Shank wrote:
My house is 18 months old. About 6 months ago, I had a problem with my freezer dumping enough water to warp some of the floor.
The damage wasn't bad enough to replace the floor, but I need to have it sanded and refinished.
The quote from the folks who installed the floor was $3 per sq foot, a total of $1500 for 500 sq feet. This includes sanding, stain, and two coats of waterborne poly. I'm going to wait until next summer so I can live in my RV for a few days while the work is done.
Brian Elfert
Brian, I don't think that 2 coats of waterborne is sufficient. I used 1 coat of sealer, 2 coats of gloss, and one coat of semi gloss. That is pretty much the bare minimum. that stuff is THIN. I was told before I started the job to do that many coats, and judging from the results, I would even consider one more coat to not be a bad, although perhaps unnecessary, idea. The pro's told me 2 coats is not enough. When you get a competitive quote, they MAY be cutting corners to give you a good price...ask around.
dave
Brian Elfert wrote:
That's about what I charge. Stain is more though (it's a PITA).
2 coats of finish is fine. I put 3 on my own. I put down 2 coats of seal before the finish though. So it's 4 coats total. (5 on my own floors.) I'd charge a little extra if they wanted a 5th coat (2 coats seal, 3 coats finish).
We only put 2 coats of on newly sanded gym floors. If it can stand up to
100s of kids almost every day all day for 1 year, it can take your floors for MANY years.Once you get to that part though, it's easy easy easy. All the hard work is behind you.
Sam, I presume you are talking Traffic, as opposed to Mega for gym floors. yes?
dave
Sam Shank wrote:
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Dave, Thanks for the excellent tips.
I will be planning a visit to the local GSF to see the stain colors as well as if they have samples that I can try on my red oak floor.
I'm still debating whether I'll use MEGA or TRAFFIC. TRAFFIC done right would seem to assure me that I'll never, ever, need to do the floors again, while MEGA leaves open that prospect. Maybe I'll do 4 coats of MEGA and not fuss with the 2-part mixing of TRAFFIC. . .
Given that both dry so quickly (and adding water to the mix to slow it down is probably not recommended), did you brush on the edges as you got to them or did you go all around the room edges prior doing the floor?
Interesting on how the drum sander is very aggressive (and effective at making ridges in the floor !) A friend had somilar results from hired help and was not pleased although to be fair, once the room was filled with furniture, it was much less evident.
My problem is that my floor boards are rectangular red oak strips that have 2 face nails every 6 inches or so, no tongue-and-groove with hidden nails. If I sand too much, then the small bit of putty hidding the nail head gets sanded off and the nail head exposed. Going around
1000 sq. feet to resink and then re-putty the holes is out of the question. As a result, I will be more tolerant of slow sanding progress with a vibrating plate sander (Home Depot rental) than risk taking off too much with a drum.November should an interesting month for me and the floors.
Cheers,
Jonas
No, don't go around the room's edges first. Apply with the grain and immediately cut in the ends. The stuff dries too fast to put it around the edges of the entire room first.
The vibrating pad sander is VERY slow to remove wood. I used it mostly to remove excess filler and even for that it was excruciatingly slooooooow. I understand your reluctance to uncover all those nails, however.
dave
JP wrote:
If there was no stain, they would do another coat of poly. The floor with two coats of poly doesn't show any wear at all after 18 months.
I'm going to use the same guys who put the floor in originally as they did a great job on the initial install. The contractor who built the house only uses the best subs he can find. Of course, the cost reflected that.
Brian Elfert
If you're that bad of a floor sander and afraid to use the drum, disc it. Rent a 175rpm floor buffer, buy a red pad, and get some 80 or even
60 grit discs and dry disc it. MUCH less aggressive than the drum sander, but way better that that silly machine at home depot.
I've never tried Traffic. Only Mega. And we usually use a different brand of products on gym floors - Hilliard.
my standards are pretty high. :) I wanted it flat as a fine table top. My floor looks better than a couple of "professionally" done neighbor's. One neighbor made them completely refinish the floor 3 times until it looked decent. were talking sanding, staining and all the finish coats. THREE TIMES! so while I'm not 100% happy, everyone I've showed the room to is impressed. So it's all a matter of degree...
dave
Sam Shank wrote:
Hi Sam,
My floors are physcially in fine shape, I just need to remove some 40 year old varnish that has yellowed tremendously.
The floor buffer you mention should do the trick. Anything that the first time user needs to be aware of? I would assume that one can get sanding discs in different grits too?
Also, which pad should I use at the end of the process to remove raised wood fibers, dust and other imperfections?
Thanks,
JP
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