Any tools still made in the USA?

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Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

Hate to tell you but buying beer and scrapping the cans outpaced many 401k's.
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Mark

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Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

I didn't imply that we "all" not buy new. Just those who have a hankering for keeping their dollars in 'Murica. Judging by what gets discussed here I don't quite have visions of too many people with certain bumper stickers plastered on their (insert truck name here).

I think you'd be surprised. The scenario you lay out would involve a lot of people unable to adapt and as hooman beans we do have that certain God given thinking capacity allotted to survival. I mean, just ''cause we forgot how to hunt down and kill woolly mammoths with our bare hands doesn't mean we'll allow ourselves to go extinct.
Besides, from what I've gleaned from all the goings on, places like Woodcraft would drop machinery in a heart beat, if they could.

Hey man, don't bogart that thing, give the rest of us a poke, won't you?
UA100
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Unisaw A100 wrote:

Hell, No! SOMEBODY'S got to buy the stuff new so we can buy it used.
I certainly don't want anyone but me buying used equipment. At least not in my area.

The scenario laid out implies:
1) Warehouses sell only equipment and tools, not hardware, wood and other supplies, and
2) There will be enough used equipment available to satisfy need. From my experience at auctions I think this will not be the case.

I don't know, for such thinking I think it would take more than a mild hallucinogenic.
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Mark

N.E. Ohio
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...

Understand that buying "American" is no different than buying "white", and realize that supporting inefficient producers (American or not) results in shittier, more expensive goods for all of us.
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Manny Davis responds:

Really? Damn. Last real production lines I saw, some few years ago, were B&D in Maryland and Makita in SC. Lessee. Also GAF near Baltimore, too. Checking personnel there, I saw probably 40% were colors other than white. Checking company ownership, I'd have to guess, but Makita is part of a Japanese conglomerate, while B&D is owned worldwide, so while U.S. management MAY be "white" (neither you nor I know for sure, though), lots of the owners are particolored. Be durned if I know who owns GAF now, but it is a multinational, so I'd guess ownership is spread widely over various nations and colors.
Let's not add excess bullshit to the baggage this problem already carries, especially in response to a humorous question.
Inefficient production is only a part of the equation. We're looking at factories that can pay their laborers something on the order of 5 bucks a day, or less, with which those laborers live better than almost all the others in their block(s). In the U.S., five bucks won't buy most hamburgers, especially after tax.
There's a leveling taking place, and my guess is that over the next decade or 2, the U.S. and its counterpart nations are not going to be very joyful about jobs. Almost every 15 or 20 buck an hour job that is replaced these days is being replaced with a 6-7 buck an hour job. Eventually that will mean that someone else is going to buy the products these emerging "efficient" producers are making.
Charlie Self "I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson
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It's not quite that simple. A good many of the jobs are not "moving", they're disappearing. Robotics is the main reason for this. I don't think anyone has quite figured out what to do about the looming underemployment problem. (I just heard an advertisiment for a Bernelli (sp?) sewing machine that has a full Microsoft-driven, Intell microprocessor installed in a HOME machine. Install enough micro-power and I might even be able to sew a new shop apron. Stop laughing. It could happen!)
But there is another problem that's just now beginning to appear on the horzion. One of the factors involved with the movement of raw manufacturing into foreign environments, is the extremely cheap transportation costs of moving the completed product(s) back into local markets. Fossil fuels are NOT going to get any cheaper, and if you listen to some, the era of (relatively) cheap energy is drawing to a close for everyone. (I don't quite believe it myself, but some relatively rational people are predicting that the peak oil production has already been reached and *no matter what*, oil production world wide, will very gradually begin to decline.
Right now, labor costs are a prime consideration on manufacturing location. However, if, as I suspect, we begin to see a increase in fuel costs, the pressure to re-locate manufacturing much closer to target markets, is going to become increasingly more of the mix. (None of this will happen overnight, to be sure.) I very much look for a return to 19th Century economics where it might be feasible, even desirable to to centralize around specific transporation (railroads), or maybe a nuclear driven power grid, but the very idea of loading a gigantic container transport, and then using millions of gallons of diseal fuel to move relatively low value commodities across the Pacific just, will become a thing of the past.
The increased energy costs alone are going to drive up the manufacture of most tools. Right now, I can buy a quite acceptable Grizzley (Chinese) cabinet saw for $1000. I assume most of those $1800 Powermatics are made overseas, but let's assume that they're made in New Britain, Connectiucut. It doesn't take much of a jump in trans-Pacific transportation costs for that Powermatic, to become much more attractive. ESPECIALLY if Powermatic would decentralize it's operations and begin manufacturing those Powermatics in three, (or more!) smaller, but still efficient manufacturing centers located around the US.
To be only somewhat facetious, this opera isn't over and the fat lady hasn't even appeared on stage yet.
James....
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J&K Copeland writes:

Uh, yeah. Eventually. But back around '73, the parents of the guys and gals making the current predictions swore up and down we'd be totally--not partly, but totally--out of reclaimable oil by the late '80s or early '90s.
Whoops. Sane and rational doesn't add much to predictions, I'm afraid. Nostradamus may have been a nut, and wrong 98% of the time, but that 2% right is about 1000% higher than anyone else's rate.
Charlie Self "I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson
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J&KCopeland wrote:

All interesting theories. Personally, I don't think we'll be seing a 19th century model unless civilization collapses completely. I think in the near term (my lifetime) the more likely outcome is that we will develop hydrogen as a practical, safe fuel source. The only reason we're not using fossil fuel alternatives right now is because we're just not motivated to make them work.
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Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan < snipped-for-privacy@users.sourceforge.net>
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On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 20:05:25 -0500, Silvan

Another problem with hydrogen is that too many companies want to make it from, yup, you guessed it: Natural Gas!
I was shocked in CA when, during the electric crisis, they all wanted to build all these natural gas fired generators. This during the time that there was an EXISTING pipeline crunch (and ongoing investigation) from, you guessed it: Texas.
Who ARE these tanjing idiots?
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Larry Jaques wrote:

Probably elected oficials.
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Mark

N.E. Ohio
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Larry Jaques wrote:

Politicians... Gotta love'em.
I've been even more cynical than ever since a few years ago when we had a tree planting event. The town mayor graced us with his presence. Got his picture taken sticking a shovel into the ground surrounded by little kids. Then he handed the shovel to one of the little kids and walked away. The newspaper read like our munificent mayor was a veritable tree planting machine, but his hands never actually touched dirt. My heart toward poly-ticks shrunk four sizes that day.
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Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan < snipped-for-privacy@users.sourceforge.net>
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Silvan writes:

You'e getting there. As time goes by--could write a song with that title, I bet--your heart towards poly-ticksians will become the size of a grape seed and as hard as granite.
Charlie Self "I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson
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Charlie Self wrote:

It's already smaller than that. I wouldn't even use one for a push stick.
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Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan < snipped-for-privacy@users.sourceforge.net>
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We're just, I believe, beginning to sort out the two-earner household. That, I think has as much to do with this problem of labor as anything else. When the second wage-earner trend began, there was a shortage of people, therefore a higher rate of pay. As we get more and more (don't say they "have" to work, that's far from universal, so far), we have an ample supply, and decreased wages.
Trouble is, factor "x" is playing too - loss of the two-adult household. Two adults in a household at 8 equals more or less one at fifteen in dough, but certainly doesn't support two separate domiciles.
Then there's the other big problem, that we can't support a generous government on income taxes from 8 buck jobs....
In response to some knee-jerk bigot.

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The solution seems to have already been decided upon: tax the crap out of property owners.
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Last update: 9/21/03
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Swingman wrote:

Man, you got that right. It's amazing how my $75,000 house turned into a $140,000 house overnight.
If I had known that was coming, I would have been a hell of a lot less friendly toward the tax assessor.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme (Charlie Self) wrote in

You misunderstood or I didn't make myself clear (probably the latter).
The mindset that some people have had in the past (do business with only white people) is no different, in principle, than the current, "do business only with Americans".

It doesn't matter what they're willing to work for. Suppose they were willing to work for free. Would Americans be worse off or better off if foreign countries shipped goods over here for free? (forgetting other production costs for the moment)
The people working in those factories are there because that is probably their best option at the moment. Five bucks a day may mean the difference between eating and not eating.

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Unisaw A100 wrote:

If I can avoid buying new I will.
I'll let some goofball pay retail and let them take the hit of decrease of value by simple virtue of taking possession.
I look about the house and see a substantial amount is second hand. Could I buy a new 250 watt RMS stereo for $25? Wife seems to think the cabinet itself was worth the money. So what if I have to walk across the room to turn it on.
Tools? Where would I begin? Three table saws and a 4" joiner for under $300 total. One TS is a Craftsman, the rest are Rockwell's. Took a little cleaning, even paying myself $20 an hour I made out like a bandit. Dedicated Dado table? Is that a big thing? Funny , I was going to set one up for this.
Another thing is, allot of this stuff can't be bought anymore. With the TS/ Joiner I got a tendoner. Big solid rigid cast iron thing. Angle can't be adjusted but that's why the saw blade tilts.
But there are things I won't buy used. My air compressor for instance. I don't trust people to blow down their tanks. A ruptured tank is a bit more excitement than I need. I have a Fluke 83, Damned if I'll trust my life to a used meter. Have I bought used meters? Yes, but the Fluke is the one I use when I have to know for sure.
(Wife's dropping hints about the time, Wife is now SWMBO).
Buy Used! Buy Often! Get more bang for the buck! Put the money in someone's pocket who's going to buy new and take the hit!
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Mark

N.E. Ohio
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Mark wrote:

sigh...
The force is strong with this one.
UA100, who has seen no depreciation with his 'chinery buys...
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wrote:

Not to mention motor vehicles. <G>
Barry
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