Any Saw Stop Owners

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Robin Lee wrote:

Um, what's happening with the old saws? :)
er
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All the ten-year-old 5hp Unisaws with 50" Bies fences are being scrapped out, due to high scrapmetal prices and the lawyer's liability recommendations. If they're replaced with SawStops, which are obviously safer, then we could be held liable for reselling obviously unsafe equipment.
Let the games begin... :)
"Chip" ...who is obviously kidding.
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That would probably be totally on point in the U.S..
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The scrap dealer will undoubtedly be willing to negotiate, and probably has people who regularly look for machine tools.
Chip Chester wrote:

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He paid me $800 per unit to haul them away.
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Robin Lee wrote:

Rob,
Does this mean that Lee Valley might start dealing with SawStop-specific accessories such as zero-clearance inserts, sliding tables, etc.?
I hope, I hope.
Larry
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Larry Spitz wrote:

The local store has an Excalibur table mounted to their SawStop. Works fine and isn't saw-specific.
Chris
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hello,

Does that mean that you are selling cheap but good 2nd hand saws?
cyrille, interested...
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Hi Cyrille (and Enoch) -
Yes - we'll be selling the saws we have...not sure how we're doing it though... will ask!
Cheers -
Rob
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<snip>

Hi -
Sorry guys - looks like most of the saws are spoken for (by employees)...
Cheers -
Rob
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much I like to read them. Unless I have something worth adding and this morring I did we got a live demo thanks to Mark and his thumb. Joe
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So I strongly suspect that although you are having a problem with misfires, Joe is happy that he was using a SawStop Saw. Huh?
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There is a very big difference between a demonstration where you have a scripted and controlled environment, and rigorous, scientific testing where you explore every possible condition of using the product. I'll bet that the inventor does the demo exactly the same way every time. I'd like to see if he would be willing to try the demo differently each time that simulates all the possible and varied ways people would use the sawstop. There are different styles, body types, skin types, etc.. How does a pacemaker affect the product? What about if you are standing in a puddle of water or grease? I'm not an electrical engineer, but I understand that a product that is claiming to do what this does better be completely tested.
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"Todd the wood junkie" wrote in message

You'd do better claiming not to be a lawyer.
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www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/13/05
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Yes, there is a difference between a canned demo and an exhaustive evaluation, but go look at what the claims are by the manufacturer. Read the FAQ - it clearly states conditions which can overwhelm the capabilities of the device and result in serious injury. It does not claim to address every possible condition. It attempts to deliver incremental gain.
This whole thing was beaten up badly a few months ago in threads on this group. There was a big division between advocates and those with philosophical problems with the whole thing. Most of the issues really came down to a lot of us not caring for the heavy handed approach the patent holders took, in attempt to legislate the use of their product on all saws. There really was not a lot of objection to the concept of the device in principle.
As far as standing in a puddle of water, or grease or anything else - those don't change the electrical capacitance of the human body, which is the electrical principle that the device works under.
Remember - the product does not suggest it can completely eliminate injuries. It attempts to address a common form of injury, and bring a measure of lessened risk. It clearly states that it can be overwhelmed by certain conditions.
The most annoying aspect of the discussions that took place here in the past were the arguments that went off on all sorts of assumptions and false pretenses, and wandered away from the expressed intent of the device.
Whether it's worth the price is up to the individual - for what it's worth, in my opinion, it's not worth what they get for it, all things considered. It is a worthwhile effort to examine and to question manufacturer's claims, but when doing so it's also worthwhile to take a look at what their claims are, and what they are publishing before throwing the questions on the floor.
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With all this to consider, how well do you think you would fare with all of the above circumstances and a regular saw?
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Let's not kid ourselves for one second. The underlying perception of the sawstop is to prevent accidental injury when flesh contacts the blade. SUPER IDEA in every sincerity. If I were to create a business plan on an idea like this, it would be to open a table saw to several new markets of users:
1. Those who use tablesaws regularly and want that extra insurance in case of a mistep. 2. Those who would never have purchased a cabinet saw, but would now feel protected and safe from harm (until they realize a saw stop can still throw wood back at them). 3. Those who want something different than anyone else (short term)
Right now, I think #3 above is the prevailing market. If you are implying that a regular saw isn't as safe, then you have missed my point. What I am saying is that if this new technology is to be effective, it must be invisible to any user until needed. When needed it MUST work right as intended every time, and forget about legal usage disclaimers. To put any kind of usage disclaimers goes against a large portion of what I would consider the long term target market.
Until it delivers perfectly against the perceived image, it is purely a novelty.
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Do you also avoid wearing seat belts, since they do not prevent death or serious injury in every accident? How about airbags, which have been known to CAUSE injuries. No, I don't think that perfection is the right standard for removing from the novelty category.
Now whether it is sufficiently effective, I don't know; I'm just quibbling with the idea that perfection should be the standard.
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If the sawstop people had just marketed their product as a safety device, I might have agreed that this is a good analogy. After all, any automaker can add a seat belt to their cars. However, their tactic was to try to get the government to _force_ saws to be sold with their exclusively patented device.
Contrast this to the mentality of automakers like Mercedes and Saab - Mercedes invented "crumple zones". It's a great safety improvement. They also specifically decided not to patent it, and to share the technology, so other makers could use this safety system. Similarly, Saab has come up with dozens of innovations which they likewise have decided not to be exclusive on.
The approach of "force everyone to buy a product that they can only get from us" is, I think, the biggest problem. The quality control and design problems are secondary.
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Actually, while I am AGAINST gov't mandates in this instance, remember that both seatbelts and airbags appeared as voluntary items only very briefly before they were mandated (and are airbags mandated, or just effectively so from the "passive restraint" regs?). And those for mandated sawstop technology will correctly point out that airbags were affordable only on Mercedes-class cars before mandates, but now add not that much cost to a $10,000 car.
Where the analogy breaks down in my opinion is the inability to apply this technology to very inexpensive saws. How do you add this to a $150 bench-top "table saw"?
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