Ammonia sources in the NYC area?

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Hey all, Does anyone know of any places in the NYC/North Jersey area that sell aqueous or anhydrous ammonia (25%)? I've tried the drafting and printing supply houses that are listed in the phone book, with no luck. TIA
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Personally, the first place I'd look would be a chemical supply house. I believe that ammonia-developed copies are probably becoming more and more rare and, like you wrote, the drafting supply people are less likely to carry a potentially dangerous chemical for which there is a diminished demand.
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John McGaw
[Knoxville, TN, USA]
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On 23 Jul 2004 09:14:48 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@cit.com (PSobon) wrote:

Don't mess with anhydrous ammonia. You only need 25%, which is just domestic cleaning grade - try a hardware store. ".880" will do, but even that's much more concentrated than you need.
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Might be called "Strong ammonia". A good chemical supply house should be able to get it for you. And yes, stay away from anhydrous. Nasty stuff, major tissue damage as it sucks water from flesh very readily. Not particularly nice on the eyes (understatement).
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PSobon wrote:

You're not likely to find anhydrous ammonia at retail--it's a gas at room temperature, highly toxic, and burns well enough to be used as rocket fuel. You do _not_ want to mess with it unless you have the right facilities and know what you're doing.
For 25% you might try chemical supply houses of which there have to be several in North Jersey.
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--John
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Anhydrous ammonia isn't 25%. It's 100%. It's the stuff applied to crops as fertilizer.
rhg
PSobon wrote:

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Robert Galloway wrote:

That's quite a trick since 100% ammonia is a cryogenic liquid sometimes used as rocket fuel.

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--John
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: Robert Galloway wrote:
:> Anhydrous ammonia isn't 25%. It's 100%. It's the stuff applied to :> crops as fertilizer. : That's quite a trick since 100% ammonia is a cryogenic liquid sometimes used : as rocket fuel.
Check out
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/cropsystems/DC2326.html
I remember farmers using anhydrous ammonia going up.
:> rhg :> :> PSobon wrote: :> :>> Hey all, :>> Does anyone know of any places in the NYC/North Jersey area that sell :>> aqueous or anhydrous ammonia (25%)? I've tried the drafting and :>> printing supply houses that are listed in the phone book, with no :>> luck. TIA : -- : --John : Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net : (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
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Back in the early 70s my uncle and a neighbor were the first to borrow and use the COOP's anhydrous ammonia applicator. Being new and the first meant getting to use it when it was brand new. But there was a learning curve. One of the items that was left off the instructions was setting the system up so as it would apply a set amount of ammonia per acre at a set speed AND NOT APPLY WHEN THE TRACTOR STOPPED. Well all but the last bit was set up fine and dandy. They stopped and noticed about 40 seconds after stopping that ammonia was brubling out of the ground behind the applicator. Well., nothing really grew in that spot for at least 3 years and even 5 years after one could still tell that there was a bit of problem with that little bit of ground.

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Anhydrous ammonia is mentioned in Bruce Hoadley's book. It is apparently the best method of bending wood (similar to steam bending).
He points out thought it is best used in an industrial setting, since it can take days to plasticize the wood, requires special ventilation, is really toxic, and I would not be surprised if, after a mistake, considering the need for industrial equipment, the NYS DEC and the EPA will be all over you like a pack of wolves (and they would probably be right).
Even assuming the stuff gets used safely, whcih is a really big BUT, how do you then dispose of it? Put it into a local sewer, if you actually survive it, you will probably be prosecuted.
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On 29 Jul 2004 15:41:58 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (DarylRos) wrote:

Ammonia is easy to dispose of. Just dilute it with plenty of water and dump it either on soil or into the drainage system. A _lot_ of ammonia is much less stress on a sewerage system than a tiny amount of engine oil or paint.
--
Smert' spamionam

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If one were applying it to wood, one would do it inside a pressure vessel and return as much as possible to a pressure tank for reuse. The amount that escaped into the atmosphere would be a waste and not "environmentally correct" but not a disaster.
Bob G.
DarylRos wrote:

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snipped-for-privacy@hiwaay.net wrote:

I stand by my statement--it's quite a trick. Farmers is crazier than I is and that's saying something.

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--John
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Yup, it's a cryogenic liquid alright. Can't speak to it's use as a rocket fuel, but yeah, the farmers drag big tanks of the stuff around the fields, injecting it into the soil to bring up the nitrogen levels.
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No trick at all. Check your facts. NH3 is a liquid at room temperature at somewhere around 800 PSI. It's one heck of a refrigerant but hardly a "cryogenic liquid" if your talking about something on the order of liquid nitrogen. LOX is used as rocket fuel oxidizer. It's a little warmer than liquid nitrogen but still very cold. A lot colder than NH3.
Bob G.
J. Clarke wrote:

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Robert Galloway wrote:

I've got some idea what one has to go through to create a system like the one described, and in my book somebody did a hell of a job of engineering--that's "quite a trick" in my book.
As for LOX and liquid nitrogen, so what?
Why is so important to you that this be considered to be something that is trivial to do?

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--John
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Once again, why don't you come up with a valid address? It's not important to me to imply that bending with ammonia would be trivial. I want to set the record straight that the stuff is not limited to rocketry but on the contrary is sitting around all over the agricultural parts of the country in large tanks (like propane) on wagon running gear and is used all the time by farmers, not rocket scientist. It's been used as a refrigerant in commercial units. The only domestic refrigerator I'm familiar with that used ammonia was the Servel. This little honey had no moving parts in the refrigeration circuit and the only energy input was a gas flame. Ammonia was the refrigerant. There may have been domestic mechanical refrigerators using ammonia of which I'm unaware. I think cryogenic liquids (don't hold me to this but I think it's the case) are defined as those that cannot be maintained as a liquid at room temperature. They are generated and maintained at extremely cold temperatures. LOX, LN2 etc. are examples of cryogenic liquid. I didn't bring up rocketry and I'm not aware of uses for ammonia in rocketry but they may exist. Any clever putterer who wanted badly enough to experiment with ammonia bending could do so safely. Now... the bit about use by meth labs and attracting the authorities, that would be another matter.
Bob G.
J. Clarke wrote:

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Mea Culpa. Way off. Thinking of CO2. Pressures closer to the 200 psi mark. Little higher than propane.
Bob G.
Robert Galloway wrote:

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No trick at all. Check your facts. NH3 is a liquid at room temperature at somewhere around 800 PSI. It's one heck of a refrigerant but hardly a "cryogenic liquid" if your talking about something on the order of liquid nitrogen. LOX is used as rocket fuel oxidizer. It's a little warmer than liquid nitrogen but still very cold. A lot colder than NH3.
Bob G.
J. Clarke wrote:

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Robert Galloway wrote:

Your phonograph is skipping. Or have you ever seen a phonograph?

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--John
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