Am I getting ripped? Local lumber yard

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I am a noobie, so this may be one of those dumb questions.
How much warping and twisting is acceptable from my local wood supplier? I certainly do not mind running it through the joiner and planer a couple of times. It seems that if I buy 4/4 or 5/4 lumber, at BEST I am getting 3/4" of good material.
I try to get the straightest pieces available, but still have to joint/plane quite a few times. Usually 4-5 times on joiner, then at least that many times on planer. I have Delta X5 joiner, Delta 13" planer. Experiences with b.e. maple, h. maple and cherry. I joint one edge and one flat side, rip to width, joint ripped edge and plane other flat edge.
Is this par for the course and I am just whining, or should I look for another supplier?
Drowning in sawdust, Dave
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Dave asks:

You should get 13/16", pretty near, from 4/4 stock, if you're paying premium prices.
Jointing and planing with lightweight equipment can be a real boring chore. I've had some wood so bad the ONLY way to get it jointed was to start with the table saw and a jig, or cut it in half (crosscut) to reduce the arc. But normally I buy green lumber and season it myself, so I can't complain too much.
Joint one edge but after you JOINT one side (if you can) to get it flat. Really, you're planing it, but using the jointer to flatten it. Then you can get a 90 degree square side. With fuzz and bumps, you can't.
Once that is done and the second side is planed parallel, I'd get a good 30 tooth rip blade and let the wood alone after that cut. A glue line blade will give you all the edge you need. Jointing it again can through it out of parallel with the already jointed edge.
Charlie Self "Telephone, n. An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making a disagreeable person keep his distance." Ambrose Bierce
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Depends on how big your lumber is, and how fussy you are. It probably takes fewer passes to get a 2' piece flat than a 10' piece, so maybe you can cut it rough size first. Sometimes you can get away with planing the first face (or at least holding it to 1 or 2 passes on the joiner), rather than joining it. It probably won't be as flat, but might not matter. 4/4 can get down to 3/4" real fast, but 5/4 shouldn't.

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Grade of lumber makes a difference. Less sapwood and knots in select or better means less drying stress.
Cutting to rough length before jointing makes a difference. You can take an 8-10' board with a lot of swoop or twist and make it a non-factor by crosscutting your 2' pieces out of it, leaving the best boards for the long stuff.
Proper use of the jointer makes a difference. Sight your boards and _carefully_ slide that guard out of the way so you can place a low spot on the outfeed and trim a high. This is what people who use hand planes do, and it really helps.
Finally, you don't need a finished surface to feed your thickness planer. As long as the board will feed flat, run it. Then you can take advantage of things like disregarding an unplaned edge if you don't need the width. In any case, not screwing around looking for a surface on the jointer will give you an extra pass in your planer.
Also helps to have a hand plane, winding sticks, and a bit of instruction on how to use it, so you can knock off the worst before you even begin surfacing on the jointer.

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Excellent advice. One of the most informative posts I've seen on the wREC in many a day.
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. Then why not just use a jack plane to quickly and safely get it close enough for the jointer? One of my best pals from high school is an EMT with more than a decade of experience. His least favorite calls (other than injured children) were shop accidents. And amongst the shop accidents, the most dreaded were those involving a jointer. A kickback from the jointer (generally caused by defeating the guard) results in the board being swifty ejected from your hands (they're being used for careful placement of the board, if I'm understanding this correctly), and then your hand can easily dive into the rotating cutter.
It happens in an instant, and according to my pal, there is a fine spray of bone, blood, cartilage and flesh that decorates the shop. They really dislike these accidents because there is nothing to take with them to the ER for attempted reattachment. Every tool deserves a certain amount of respect in the shop. The jointer is in a class all by itself. Though it is not #1 in the number of accident occurrences, a bad encounter with one is unimaginably devastating. I would have to ponder alternate ideas for a month before defeating a functioning guard on a jointer.
This is not some sky-is-falling, hand tool proselytizing flame, just some thoughts on using the right tool for the job - safely. And George is right - it works great!
BTW, an easy way to keep track of the high spots you're working on knocking down is to scribble lightly with pencil, and then plane off the pencil marks. You'll be amazed how fast it goes.
Sometimes the best thing going is a good hand job.
O'Deen
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On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:30:21 -0800, "Patrick Olguin"

Ya' know, I've never even THOUGHT of face jointing without push blocks. <G>
I guess I'm weird.
Barry
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Barry Burke writes:

Me, too. And I'll stay weird.
Charlie Self "Telephone, n. An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making a disagreeable person keep his distance." Ambrose Bierce
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snip
snip
I don't think that would be "proper use of the jointer." When I've had occassion to do things as George described, one hand is on the guard, and the other is placing the board down on the jointer, on the infeed side well down from the cutterhead. Thus, (geez, I'm sounding like a mathematician) if disaster stuck and the board was kicked back, that hand would be pushed even farther from the cutterhead.
I've always thought one of the cardinal rules (if not *the* cardinal rule) of using a jointer is to never have one's hands over the cutter head.

You don't fool me for a minute, you hand tool proselytizer, you. ;)
--
Jeff Thunder
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snipped-for-privacy@luthien.comcast.net (Jeff Thunder) wrote:

SNIP
Don't assume that your hand will be pushed back. As a rather dumb know-it-all teen-ager (yeah, I know, that's redundant) I made the mistake of trying to joint a too short piece of wood. Too much pressure on the front led to immediate kickback. The board flew out of my hand, but my hand kept moving forward; after all I HAD been pushing the board forward. The result--I've been a half finger short for the last 30 years.
David
ps. By the way, stubby fingers don't impress the women.
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Redundancy, all right. Short pieces need those two-handed pushblocks. If only the kids would use 'em.
Last kid I kicked out was on his third dangerous attempt before I lost my patience. I do both IA and EMS, but I don't really care to mix 'em. If you can't help others because some moron is bound and determined to hurt himself....

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     snipped-for-privacy@mailbag.com (David E. Penner) writes:
[snip]

[snip]
Reread what I wrote. I'm not pushing the board forward, so yes, my hand would be pushed back if the board kicked back when placing it on the jointer.
As another poster mentioned, one should use pushblocks when face jointing. Once the board is on the jointer, you can grab your pushblocks and use them. In other words, once you're pushing the board forward, you're using pushblocks.
The point I was trying to make is that it is possible to safely place the board on the jointer when doing as George described.
--
Jeff Thunder
Dept. of Mathematical Sciences
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Patrick Olguin wrote:

Wow... Food for thought. Probably just as well I can't afford and don't have room for a jointer then.
Though I do hope to acquire a #7 or #8 soon...

Prevert.
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Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan < snipped-for-privacy@users.sourceforge.net>
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Patrick, maybe I'm dense, but I'm trying to understand your point about the guard. Do you really mean that the kickback is *caused* by the guard not being used? Or that the hand diving into the cutter is because the guard's off?
Assuming it's the latter, I'm also wondering if most blade guards on jointers return fast enough to protect in that situation. If you were pushing with your leading hand say 6 inches from the cutterhead, and the board kicked backward out of your hands, your hands continue moving forward of their own momentum....... is the guard going to close before your hand reaches the cutterhead?
I know mine is nowhere near that fast. Could be that I need to pre-tension the spring more.
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You're not dense. I just didn't offer a decent illustration ;).
Two typical ways to lose fingers in a jointer -
1. You're holding the guard open to lower a board onto it, and you're leaning a bit towards the cutter with the rear hand (most likely right). The board kicks back, and since you haven't let go of the guard yet, the hand that was once holding the board goes into the exposed cutter head.
2. You're jointing a short board, and it won't quite work with push blocks and the guard, so you eschew the push blocks. Board kicks back and disappears behind you while your hand goes into the cutter head.
Pretty much short boards and a power jointer don't go well together. Plus, it's really easy to flatten a small board with a hand plane, irrespective of one's view on Zen and the art of hand tools.
O'Deen
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On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 11:36:32 -0800, "Patrick Olguin"

I'm still lost. <G>
Lower a board onto a jointer? Why? I always slide the board across the infeed table, across the spinning blades, right onto the outfeed table. This is always done with push blocks, unless I'm edge jointing. When edge jointing it's quite easy to keep a good, safe grip on the work, but even then I never lower a board onto the cutter head.

If it's too short for blocks, it's too small for the tool.
Do people do this stuff on purpose? Is there some technique I'm missing?
Barry
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On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 20:28:39 GMT, B a r r y B u r k e J r .

If you have a longish sorta board with a big crook in it, the leading edge of the board may come at the cutter at too steep an angle to run the board through all at once. If you ran it through you might chunk out the leading part of the board.
You may have to set the board down with the cutter beneath the mid point of the concavity of the board's edge and joint down the trailing part of the board first.
Regards, Tom Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson
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On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 16:10:06 -0500, Tom Watson

Ok, that would make sense.
The reason why it didn't initially make sense to me is that I'll usually save a longish board with a big crook for short parts.
Thanks, Barry
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"B a r r y B u r k e J r ." wrote:

I've done this to taper a leg such as in a shaker style sofa table. It is a common practice. The first time might seem scary but once you've passed that it's really easy. Begin with a light cut, once that's made you can increase the cut until you're ready to make the final light cut. You're just establishing an angle with the first cut.
Scott
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However, with any semblance of intelligence, you lay the board on top of the guard, then, while holding the part of the board which will rest on the outfeed table lightly to same with your block, you slide the guard out of the way from under it, never revealing the cutters.
For jointing short stock, or even surfacing, a two-handed push block (like a plane with a heel to hook the aft edge) will allow full control of both direction and, as it is able to butt into it, the guard.
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