5" ROS choices?

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Leon wrote: ...

No, the example is yet again a reduction in the level of the standard (or perhaps a loss of QC in the implementation of what a standard might still be if, in fact, there hasn't been a formal redefinition of a program goal).
In the former you're mixing up something like the "5-sigma" _level_ of quality w/ QC as a technique. The two are a separate pieces of the total.
While retired, in former life I was member of ASQC (as well as ASA, ANS and various others) and QC was a part of my consulting gig. The definitions of QC have _NOT_ changed; and in fact Mickey D's is quite a serious implementor of QC. That they have a product that you and others like to poke at isn't the same thing; they do an excellent job of maintaining their product at the desired point which is the object of QC.
Again, if they were a 5-star cuisine organization the same principles would serve just as well with only a different set of measures.
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dpb wrote: ...

And, more specifically, if the dealership has determined that owing to cost pressures or other factors that they have a 75% goal and are achieving that; that is achieving a QC goal.
Now that that carries with it a lower level of customer satisfaction is likely a concomitant cost. The question then is where the overall balance is in profitability, etc., and if management has made that decision that's a choice. Given current cost pressures many have done such and it's even more difficult in businesses having to deal with cheap imported goods or the ilk than in service industries owing to factors outside their direct control.
OTOH, if the goal is still nominally 100% because the program hasn't actually been modified but they're only achieving 75, then the organization is failing. Such things happen quite a lot, unfortunately, for several reasons. The largest reason (by far) for such failures I saw in the consulting gig was loss of commitment by management.
Now that there are a lot of organizations that are lowering the level of the quality standard given economic pressures; particularly as noted in response to cheap import goods I'll not disagree but it isn't necessarily the same thing as QC itself not being good; W-M is another cheap outfit that does extremely tight control on less expensive goods.
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On 2/5/2011 1:23 PM, dpb wrote:

It's relative.
Seems like the airlines are having BIG problems with the QC of the aircraft maintenance. 75% doesn't make if for me.
I know, I know ... you addressed it further _down_, but I just couldn't bring myself to use that word in that context!
:)
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We are old school and we stick to what is right. If you look up the words Quality and Control you do not come up with a definition that describes what today's interpretation is. Today's meaning is simply a way of hiding/disguising unacceptable.
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wrote:

Or having the customer return it. That is where the QC departments now reside.
Mark
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@hotmail.com says...

So found your own tool company on the basis of your definition of "quality control" and see how many you sell.
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wrote:

It seems to sell alot of stuff in the market place today actually. But I prefered with the stuff work out of the box 100% of the time. That is not the case you test 13 out of a thousand if they pass send them to the warehouse.
Mark
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@hotmail.com says...

Like what?

So what do you, test _all_ the cartridges in the case?
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wrote:

Bought any home video, a radio, small kitchen appliances.

Actually I test nada now, except for what I buy. Use to test electronics, after I fixed the production that did not work.
But testing at assembly works, sampling works well for electronic components but still relies upon use in pcb to weed out the bad ones.
Mark
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Swingman wrote:

Chuckle...
Seriously, of course some applications call for much higher quality levels. What I've seen of the failures in the aircraft maintenance aren't QA failures but actual fraud.
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says...

I remember one of the support engineers walking into a meeting at Enormous Aerospace with a box of parts that had our part numbers and our logos and our QC marks and all sorts of other identification on them, that had absolutely no resemblance to the parts that we produced that bore those marks. I mean in some cases they were so far off that it was like seeing a rock with a Bosch label and logos and the identification plate for one of their jigsaws attached. The things were ostensibly spares for some of our older equipment and had been returned by customers who had bought them as surplus from third party suppliers. The issue at hand was whether we had produced them and one glance said "no".
At that point things moved to a higher level, with the FAA and the FBI getting involved and all that was way above my pay grade so I have no idea what the outcome was, but presumably whoever was making these things was shut down.
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On 2/5/2011 7:28 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

The problem, it appears, is now those at the higher level have figured out how to sidestep recriminations by "outsourcing".
... I think I'll walk, or drive myself, to the next gig, thank you. ;)
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Our QC goal was 100% correct when the vehicle went out the door. QC rejected about 12% and returned the vehicle to the technician to rectify before the customer took possession. In addition we had a satisfaction survey with immediate follow up phone calls to each and every customer that had their vehicle serviced. Our satisfaction rating was ALWAYS above 95% achieved and we encouraged the customer to return the vehicle if there was a problem, and if necessary offered a free loaner car to use while we corrected the problem. Seldom did we see a vehicle return with our prior knowledge from our caller that it was coming back in.
Was that a profitable business plan? Yes it was. We had more work than we knew what to do with. Each week during the spring and summer we stopped taking in customers on Wednesday for the week. Typically we would write up 100~125 vehicles each Monday morning before the lines ended. By Wednesday afternoon we would have written 300+ vehicles for the week. I got paid really really well.
Quality service and products served right will always be profitable. To expect less of yourself and your service or product for the sake of trying to increase profit margins will be a loosing proposition in the long run.
By today's definition of QC it is no wonder that businesses are in the shape that they are in and it is a small wonder why the foreign competition has been gaining steadily for many many years. QC is now better defined as a level of acceptable incompetence or inferiority. It is a shame that "most" businesses today don't know that any thing less than 100% satisfaction of its product is not a good thing, but then we live in an immediate gratification society. So you can continue to explain how your QC does not stand for perfection rather a level of tolerable acceptance and you can continue to wonder why that ain't working.
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@swbell.dotnet says...

You are conflating "quality control" with "zero defects". You can do that if you want to and you make make points with the peanut gallery but anybody who knows anything about industrial processes knows that he's got the right of it.
QC is a process, zero defects is a goal. One generally has to run a QC process to achieve zero defects but it is not necessary that zero defects the the result of the QC process.
As to the notion thathe can continue to wonder why QC at a level less than zero defects isn't working, you really need to demonstrate _where_ it isn't working. Show us an industry where there is a leader that achieves zero-defects and has slaughtered all their competition.
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Leon wrote: ...

...
Again, misconception and mistaken understanding of what am saying...
"Quality control: The observation techniques and activities used to fulfill requirements for quality."
<http://asq.org/learn-about-quality/quality-assurance-quality-control/overview/overview.html
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Could I interrupt this QC discussion for a question on Festool ROS? <grin> My curiosity has been piqued now as to why the Festool is so superior to other ROSs. Is there really a performance advantage sufficient to justify the higher cost. What is it that makes a Festool so much better? I've been looking at the 150: http://tinyurl.com/4gvcq2d
I have several ROS sanders but if I become persuaded that the Festool is worth the money..........I'll spring. Thanks,
Max
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The one(s) I use and really like is this one: http://tinyurl.com/5tyglhf Big difference in performance and price, however.
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wrote:

I don't think I *need* the rotary action. I can't recall an instance where I had a sanding situation where I needed that sort of an aggressive action. Once in awhile I might need to take off a slight misfit between a face frame and the carcase but my belt sander does it very well. And an extra $200. doesn't seem to me to be justified..................at this point.
Max
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On 2/5/2011 4:27 PM, Max wrote:

> What is it that makes a Festool so much better? > I've been looking at the 150:
> http://tinyurl.com/4gvcq2d
Festool products are excellently engineered and of high quality, and that one would be a good one, but it is not the top end of the Festool sanders.
I would say that you might get a better bang for your buck by shopping around and checking other reviews, like this one:
http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/industry-news.asp?sectionID 93&articleIDP1109
The "Rotex" versions are what I'm most familiar with and ...
I would say yes ... mainly due to having a choice of motions ("rotex", or aggressive removal, and eccentric, or less aggressive), bolstered by the hole location and number in the pad, increasing the benefit (longer sandpaper life) from dust extraction, given you overall a much more efficient sanding system.
However ... to be effective and get the greatest sanding efficiency, you most definitely do need a dust extraction system. Might not have to be a Festool DE system, but they certainly optimize the performance.
Also, the motors are robust, well engineered and relatively quiet and vibration free in operation.
Here's an independent review of the Rotex 125, which compares it to the Rotex 150, so covers both quite nicely.
http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/ro_125_review.pdf

Only caveat, as stated above ... IME&O, the sander must be part of a dust extraction system to get you maximum efficiency/cost effectiveness ... just my tuppence.
That, of course, raises the ante ...
I will say this, if you're in the woodworking business in some fashion, it is highly unlikely you will EVER regret any Festool purchase.
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One caveat. You'll regret the initial cost... . . . For a little while.
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