------------------------------------- "Sw> Good trick if you could do it ... final face frame sanding on a
---------------------------- Last trip I made to the drum sanding shop, had to wait for the guy to finish a load of face frames that were being installed the next day.
Evidently finish sand was good enough for that job.
Lew
So's a Big Mac ... if I couldn't do better than fast fast food quality work, I'd not do it in the first place. :)
Most rely on the painter to finish sand an installation. I do not. We always do our own finish sanding on our work, from drawers to the entire install.
Simply put, we owe it to the painstaking effort we put into the project before ever getting to that point.
---------------------------- McDonalds can take care of themselves, but from what I've seen of the fast food industry by and large they do a pretty decent job of maintaining quality control.
Given linen and silver service not provided.
Lew
The problem with prefinish sanding is that you have to do it again. Cabinets do not always line up perfectly and finish sanding, once mounted, makes the joint line disappear.
Is there a such thing as "quality" in the fast food industry? I think about all the preservitives used to make the food taste the same each time you go in... and then I try not to think about what my son's friends that have worked in that industry have told me about what you don't want to know. They are kids and don't eat where they work. Apparently it is like sausage, it all tastes good until you find out or watch it being made. I will agree that the fast food industry has a consistant standard but I would not really consider it a quality standard.
Notice Lew stated "quality control" not "quality levels"
They do the first well, the latter poorly as you stated.
------------------------------- Good point and it raises a question in my mind.
Since both sides of the face frame are sanded smooth, how much a problem of joint line mismatch do you think remains at final ass'y?
Lew
I did notice what hes said, quality control. There is no quality to control. I would call it a standard control.
;~) If every hamburger you bought from a specific store had sand in it and every time had the exact same of sand in it would you say they have a good quality control? IMHO Quality Control does have a minimum standard that is implied.
It can be sigificant and especially if you are joining 4~5 cabinets along a wall run. Typically a wall is not straight or with out in or out bulges. While shims will remove most of the problems with uneven floors and walls you simply cannot depend on them to fis every thing. We tend to attach the units to each other and shimmed to the floor and walls as best as we can. Then we finish sand all the joints including those on the cabinet and the ones there the cabinets are joined.
Basically regardless of how well the face frames may be presanded, after joining a particular face frame and cabinet to another and then mount and shim the cabinets there can be some shift between the cabinets, it is normally not much but it does happen. Sanding once everything is in place makes everything appear more as a single unit.
...and they control the quality to make sure they never rise above that implied standard...
And as a side note, I believe that I have sanded 4 complete sets of installed kitchen cabinets that Swingman and I have built and installed. The first kitchen I used his Bosch ROS, the second I started with the Bosch and finished with my PC right angle ROS. Both of these jobs took 4-5 hours each and there was dust floating everywhere. Clean up took extra time.
About 3 years ago I started using my 5" Festool Rotex with the CT2200 Vac attached. That job took 2~3 hours with no dust. The last kitchen had the same results. No clean up on either.
IIRC the first two kitchens were a bit smaller than the last two.
3 grits of paper were used to sand each kitchen completely 3 times.
I wonder if anyone has ever tried the technique of putting an ever so slight bevel on the sides of face frames (think: door) so the butted edges would be tight even if a wave in the wall caused a slight convex line on any two cabinet fronts.
If the corporate and/or store specification stated that was the proper amount of sand, yes, that would be good quality control.
The target specification and subsequent control to the specification are two separate pieces. QC by itself simply is to maintain a specific tolerance to a a target (whatever that target value may be).
--
Well let's say that the sand was not intended however they could not remidy the situation and the consumer is stuck with it and accepts it.
Or lets say the hamburgers sit on the shelf and drys out until the next rush of customers but a trip to the steamer to reintroduce moisture and heat to the burger is a standard procedure. Is that "quality" control even though the burger is not as fresh as the ones currently being assembled and immediately sold but no one can tell the difference in taste?
That might work if the floor is perfectly flat but what if the floor dips or swells also? And or the wall or floor surfaces may be flat and even at one point of contact with the cab but not at other spots. IMHO it is simply easier and faster to finish sand after the install.
As stated, if it isn't in the specification (or more rigorously, if the specification says it isn't supposed to be there), that's a failure.
That's outside of QC purview as to whether the end user accepts it or not. Proper implementation of QC would, however, prevent non-compliant product from entering the product chain (in rigorous compliance, to the exclusion of having any product, yes).
...
Of course, if it is, as I believe you're postulating, part of a process.
Again, you're confusing/confounding the _level_ of the quality standard w/ the process of QC to a standard.
--
I wasn't implying that it be done in place of those things. I'm thining of the case where there is solid contact on the back of the stile but not the front. There would be a gap in the front. In any case, I'm guessing guys shim that out so everything is flush.
Actually, the process seems to have gotten a bit confused.
The general procedure is to join cabinets, face frame to face frame, on a level surface, before they are installed/attached to the wall.
Obviously you can't do that in cases where run is too long, but it is generally advantageous to do this.
That notwithstanding, the problem can be easily demonstrated by butting two boards of the same thickness side by side on a level surface ... no matter how much you try, you can almost always tell the join beteen the two surfaces just by running you finger across it, even there is only
1/128" difference.That is the kind of thing you try to rectify by finish sanding after installation ... if your error is any larger than just a small difference, you would have done better by rejoining the cabinets before you put them up.
IOW, it's a very small thing, not a gross adjustment, that you want to sand out ... more of an aesthetic thing.
But you're right (if I understand your intent correctly), a "v" groove along the join can certainly hide those kind of irregularities, and is a legitimate device to do so ... problem is that you need to carry it throughout the installation as a "design feature" in order for it to be effective because it certainly changes the look and feel.
I always thought it would end up looking better to hand it all as one piece. Hope you have helpers. :-)
I don't have a way with words, so this is what I'm talking about... exaggerated, of course.
Now I got you. AAMOF, I do that very thing (undercut) when scribing a FF to wall, when necessary.
That said, in all the cabinetry I've done down through the years I can't recall a single situation where it was remotely necessary when screwing two adjoining FF's together.
That's not to say it won't happen on the next job.
HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.