220VAC Wiring question

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Hi, All,
Today I just put in the conduit and wiring for my table saw due to arrive in a day or so. I have 4 outlets along the wall, chest high, 5-6 feet between each box. My question is how to hook up the wires in the main box. I have a separate 200 amp box for the garage/shop.
Inside are 2 empty ganged circuit breakers, unused, in addition to the 120VAC breakers. They used to run a compressor and a welder per the previous owner. The ganged circuit breakers have a screw on each one to connect the wire. For 220VAC, do I run the two "hot" wires to each one of the screws? The neutral, white, goes to the ground strip, I could find that easily. And does it matter red/black wires, which goes to which part of the socket? (except the neutral/ground).
And, if I had a good meter, I would use it, but I'm at my "summer"house where this is all happening. And 1700 miles is too far to go back and pick it up!
Thanks to all for any help!
Regards,
Rich.....
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If you use a 2 pole breaker you connect one hot to each side, that is 240v. The ground wire goes to the grounding bus and the 3d prong of the receptacle. If there is a neutral load (4 prong plug) you hook the white to the neutral bus. If this is the main panel the neutral and ground bus will be the same. A sub panel has the neutral isolated from the can and the ground bus.
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rich wrote:

Your assumptions are correct. Red and black are interchangable with respect to which side of the socket or which of the poles of the circuit breaker they connect to. Just connect one to each of the two screws on one of the ganged breakers, like you said. For a tablesaw the white wire is probably not going to be used and doesn't need to connect to the socket in any way. I'd just coil it up in the box behind the socket and stick a wire nut on the end.
By the way, you said there are four outlets. Are these all 240V or some 120V as well? If mixed, did you run a separate wire or wires for the 120V outlets so they can be on their own circuit(s), or are you planning to piggyback onto the 220V? If so, you'll need the neutral for those recepticles.
Josh
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You didn't specifically mention the green grounding wire, but a proper connection is important. Whether it is bare or green, it should be connected to the grounding buss in the distribution panel and to the appropriate point on the receptacle, including to the metal outlet box if you are using one.
Chuck
Josh wrote:

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If you have only three wires (Black, Red & White) you should use the Black & Red for your Hot leads (interchangeable) and the white as the ground. Running a 220v piece of equipment without grounding it is dangerous. I recommend using green tape or colored marker to change the end of the white wire green so in the future others will know it is a ground.
If you have a 200v machine that has a 110v light or other 110v accessory, you will need a 4th wire (black, red, white & green or bare). The white and one of the hot leads is for the 110v load and the green/bare is to ground the machine.
Be careful.

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Not correct in any respect. First off, if he has only three wires, they will almost certainly be black, white, and bare -- not black, red, and white. If he has black, red, and white, he also has a fourth conductor, which will be bare or green.
Second, white is NEVER to be used for ground. White is neutral, and bare/green is ground.

Better to use the bare (or greeen) wire which is already there.

As noted above, if he has black, white, and red, he already has the 4th conductor as well.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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<<< First off, if he has only three wires, they will almost certainly be black, white, and bare -- not black, red, and white.>>>
What if the conduit is the ground, wouldn't white be neutral?
wrote:

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Yes, it would -- which was pretty much my point: white is neutral, *not* ground.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Long time lurker, first time poster here.
Doug, I've watched you give out crappy electrical advice for quite some time, and I think it's time I give you a little schoolin'.
First of all, TomH's post was pretty much spot on. So your bit about "not correct in any respect" is horse hockey.
You haven't done much wiring, have you? In a perfect world, the three wires are black, red, and g/b. How often do you think that happens? All the time? Most of the time? SOME of the time?
I've run into situations contstantly where you get black, red, and white. Hell, I just bought some 12/3 that had black, white, and green. Only a fool relies on wire colors to tell him what that load that wire carries or doesn't carry.
White gets used for ground all the freakin' time...especially in the situation TomH describes. Granted, in the electrical codes, white SHOULD be neutral, and G/B SHOULD be ground. But if you got a red/black/white, would you suggest hooking a different color to the ground? Honestly...would you?
The bottom line is that you can get a multi-meter for $14 at a hardware store. If you know how to use it, do so. If you don't, get a damn electrician to hook you up.
Doug Miller wrote:

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new_2 snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com writes:

You should return to Lurking. Doug was correct, you are quite incorrect.

Actually, it is a violation of the NEC to use a conductor that is not green, bare or green/gray as a grounding conductor.
The white conductor (aka grounded conductor, aka neutral conductor) may be used as a current-carrying conductor, if it is appropriately marked at both ends, but it may never, under any circumstances be used as a grounding conductor. Period.

As an electrician, I did plenty of wiring, both new installs and retrofit work. I no case did I, nor any electrician I worked with advocate the use of, nor use the grouded conductor as a grounding conductor.
In no case would such work ever be passed by an inspector.
And, btw, 12-3 romex has been sold w/g (with ground) since the late 60's.

Type SJ, right? Can't be used in wall anyway.

Further deponent sayeth not.

No, white _MUST_ be neutral and GREEN/Bare/Gray&Green _MUST_ be ground. The NEC doesn't use the word _SHOULD_.

I, and any electrician worth his salt, would replace the wiring with the correct gauge and number of conductors.

Take your own advice, fella, and have an electrician do your electrical work. You owe it to your family, friends and the next owner of your home.
scott
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On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 18:17:18 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

Green/gray?
Don't you mean green/yellow
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new_2 snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

You obviously have me confused with Toller -- and you should school yourself first before you try to school me.

No, it wasn't, and if you knew anything about wiring you would have seen the same errors I did.

It's pretty clear that you haven't done *any* wiring -- you haven't any idea what the colors are in a normal cable.

Didn't read my post too carefully, did you? I never said you couldn't have black, red, and white -- just that you wouldn't have *only* black, red, and white, without having a grounding conductor as well.

No, you didn't. You bought 12/2 with ground.

Nobody's talking about load here...

Doing so is a Code violation.

Wrong. In the NEC, white MUST be neutral, and green/bare MUST be ground. They are flatly prohibited from being used for anything else.

Yes, I would. I'd suggest attaching the green or bare wire that is *also* present to the ground.

Sounds like you should be calling the electrician before you touch anything.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Doug Miller wrote:

Bullshit. Where in Florida have you done 100% of your wiring, Dougie? I say Florida, but you can substitute any location where all the houses have been built since 1970. You know how many times I've hauled wire out to replace an outlet, only to find just a black, a red, and a white? Or a two blacks and a white? Your problem is you define normal as "what I've seen that's been rewired since 1970." Come to an older city...pull some outlets out. Tell me what you find.

Read my reply above. You'll see it all the time.

You're as ignorant as I thought.

Yes it is. And it's done every second of every day of every year. And there's so many local variations on the NEC, and those variations change with such frequency, that I would not be at all surprised one day to pull a purple wire out of a wall. And guess what? Inspectors never see it.

You are correct, but you missed my point. And you also missed the point where I agreed with Tom H where he said to change the color of both ends of the wire to indicate it was now being used as a ground.

Even if your phantom ground wire isn't there?
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new_2 snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

Just guessing here, but ... never?

Been there, done that, found black, white, and bare. Never black, white, and red but no bare. And you haven't either.

No, you won't.

There's an ignoramus here, all right, but it isn't me. What you bought was 12/2 with ground. Or 12/3 SJ cable, which isn't used for premises wiring.

Cite one case, just one, where a "local variation" of the NEC permits using white as the grounding conductor.

Wrong again. I didn't miss anything. You're still missing the point badly, though.

But of course it is. And if you had the knowledge and experience you pretend to, you would know that.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Doug,
Have you ever heard of a little city by a lake called Chicago? It's in the midwest...Google maps can probably help you. Just type C*H*I*C*A*G*O into the text box, upper/lower case doesn't matter, but leave out the asterisks. You might have to add "Illinois."
This is important because, in Chicago, they don't follow the NEC. They're like hundreds and thousands of other municipalities in the country who don't.
In Chicago, Romex is expressly verboten. (That's German for "forbidden," Doug.) You are required to use conduit for everything in Chicago. Everything there above a certain guage is stranded wire, too. So you see, Doug, you can pull all manner of colors out of an outlet in Chicago.
Because although the CEC requires white to be neutral and green to be ground, not all rewiring work done in Chicago is done by lisenced (read: union) electricians. Sometimes you get some homeowner who doesn't know much about codes, but he knows how to run a pair of pliers, and he does his own rewiring.
And you are certainly permitted, by code, the Chicago Electrical Code, not the NEC, which they don't follow in Chicago, to "change the color" of a wire by covering it with tape, of the appropriate color, at ALL switches, junctions, etc. Green can only be used for ground. But a white wire can be "relabled" ground with simple tape, which is just what our friend Tom H suggested he do.
So the point is, over the years, and by that I mean roughly a hundred, give or take, all manner of wire has been used in houses. During the time America has been wiring houses, the codes weren't always particularly uniform. And there are still several states which have not, and probably will not, adopt the NEC. What was code at the time, in that locality...well...who knows...
So I'll ask again...where in Florida have you done all your work?
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new_2 snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

Not true. They have adopted additional restrictions on top of the NEC.

Blather on, pal. Doesn't matter to me. I won't see your response.
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Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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No, Detroit is right here. The CEC was developed entirely separately from the NEC...they have nothing to do with each other.
In some respects, the NEC is tighter, and in many respects far, far looser. Different animals all together.
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OK., thanks for the correction. I was repeating what I had been told by a former Chicago resident, who apparently was misinformed.
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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I can confirm that the Chicago code bears little-to-no resemblance to the NEC. And, I've been in an argument with an electrical inspector there, over code-compliance. And *won*.
The Chicago code is obnoxiously restrictive in some respects -- even the _telephone_ wiring has to be in conduit! And, it is a *swamp* to wade through.
Some section says "you can't do this", but something else, many _pages_ away says "that section doesn't apply *IF* these conditions are met". BUT there is yet another section that says "that exemption doesn't apply under _these_ conditions". etc., etc., ad nauseum.
And they're _all_ 'backward' references -- there's nothing at the "you can't do this" section that contains _any_ reference to those other 'special case' situations. Gotta read *everything* to have any idea of what you can/cannot do in any specific situation.
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snip>

When using DC I believe the NEC now requires black and white, black being hot (positive) as usual and white being the negative or ground. Not typically found in any AC wiring but when doing solar electric it's a pet peave of the AHJ in SW Colorado.....
Now back to our regularly scheduled bickering
Gary
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