Yikes, blown the suppy company neutral fuse ...

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember "Jerry" saying something like:

You lose.

[The Wanderer]

Whooosh!

[Jerry]

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message news: [e-mail]... : We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the : drugs began to take hold. I remember "Jerry" : saying something like: : : >Not at all Grimly, as I said, try reading that segment of this : >thread again, complete with context. : : You lose.

Not in the slightest, as you would know if you had bothered to read the context, but then idiot trolls like you never do like the actual facts...

[Jerry]

: > : > : : > : It tends to be less of an issue nowadays anyway, most kit sold : > is : > : targeted at an international market, and hence has to be fitted : > with a : > : flex that will be adequately fault protected on a 16A circuit : > breaker : > : for countries that don't have BS1363 plugs or similar, and so : > is safe on : > : a 13A fuse. : > : : >

: > That, as has been pointed out already, is not true for the UK : > market as they have to be supplied with a fitted BS1363 plug, an : : It has to be fitted with a plug (although this is often a wrapper round : a euro style two pin plug on many lower power appliances), but that does : not mean the flex is changed for a smaller one just for us. : : > increasing number of UK appliances thus come with a suitably : > rated flex that corresponds to the rating to the fuse (device) : > installed in the moulded on plug. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ : : Other way round actually - the trend is toward more harmonisation with : the rest of Europe rather than less. Its also important to keep in mind : that the plug fuse is there to provide fault protection and not overload : protection. So even a notional 3A flex will quite likely be adequately : protected by a 13 fuse. :

You do talk utter tosh at times John, did you actually bother to read (now highlighted) what I said before typing that load of bilge?!

[Jerry]

: >

: >: : >: It tends to be less of an issue nowadays anyway, most kit sold : >is : >: targeted at an international market, and hence has to be fitted : >with a : >: flex that will be adequately fault protected on a 16A circuit : >breaker : >: for countries that don't have BS1363 plugs or similar, and so : >is safe on : >: a 13A fuse. : >: : >

: >That, as has been pointed out already, is not true for the UK : >market as they have to be supplied with a fitted BS1363 plug, : : Only for the _domestic_ market. :

...and your point was what exactly, considering that we *are* talking about the domestic (UK) market?!

[Jerry]

Now show where I have discussed what the acceptable (or indeed unacceptable) risks of the other system might be?

I have already done so, unfortunately you are to thick to understand what you are actually saying! You can say that safety regulations are important and then suggest that people in competition for a Darwin award shouldn't be protected by those regulations!

[Jerry]

: >:> Another unthinking parrot, "the regs say such and such, so : > that : >:> is that then"... : >: : >: Whatever you say, Jerry. : >: : >: I'm minded of the proud mum watching her army son marching with : > all his : >: fellow squaddies. 'Ooh look! My son's the only one in : > step......' : >: : >

: > Well yes, the regulations/Sergeant decreases something and from : > that day on that is the only way what-ever can be safely : > achieved... : : Whooosh! :

Indeed this thread does seem to have gone way over your head.

[Man at B&Q]

[e-mail]...

No you haven't, as I have not discussed the risks of Radial wiring (the other system in this case).

LOL!

Stop trying to put word in my mouth, just so you can argue against them. Never mind what I can or could say. What I DO say is that safety regs ARE important but economics and common sense are also important.

Show us a safety system that couldn't be improved.

There comes a point where systems are "safe enough", when ALL of the factors are considered.

BS fused plugs fall into that category.

So did DIY electrical work before Part P. You weren't responsible for that, were you?

MBQ

[The Wanderer]

Whatever you say. No one is taking any notice of what you have to say.

[John Rumm]

As an aside Jerry, is there any chance you could install OEQuoteFix to stop your newsreader making such a complete dogs breakfast of the quoting?

No Jerry, I just answer each of your points in turn, and I do take care when writing responses to keep them factually accurate.

If you read through the sequence you will see there is nothing of relevance to your mention of "moulded on plugs".

I highlighted that many of the pre-fitted plugs sold here are actually adaptors on existing moulded on two pin plugs. This is just an observation, and I presume not open to dispute. These kludges tend to get used for small low power appliances generally. The significance being that the fitted flex etc is not just similar for each market, but identical.

You then made the following statement:

Which seems to include an implicit assumption that manufacturers of goods will size a flex differently for the UK market based on the assumption that they can provide additional protection with the plug fuse that would not be possible in other countries.

I was attempting to point out that for a variety of reasons that generally does not happen any more. For appliances requiring more than

3A there is no technical benefit anyway, since the fault protection offered by a 13A fuse is not significantly different from that given by a 16A breaker.

On a regulatory level, the EU has rules concerning products that one can legally placed onto the market in EU member states. Products must carry a EU conformity sticker, and should be safe for use in all member states. That includes for example being able to run on anything from the nominal 220V in some countries, to our 240V supplies. One can legitimately but a product here, chop the moulded plug off it, and fit a Shuko style plug on it and use it in Germany. The flex still needs to be adequately sized.

Yes I read it, and as I mentioned, I felt it had no relevance.

[1] Just in case you are not families with the term "fault protection" - this is a specific term that refers to protection from very high current, short duration faults that would be typical of a short-circuit (live to neutral or live to earth) arising from cable damage etc. It is the *only* reason for the inclusion of fuses in BS plugs. It has nothing to do with overload protection - i.e. clearing a situation where either a circuit is being asked to supply too many appliances, or where a single appliance is drawing more than its design current due to component failure etc.

In many cases even the smallest and rarely used[2] 0.5mm^2 "3A" flex will often have adequate fault protection from even a 13A fuse. The more common 0.75mm^2 flex will almost always be adequately protected by one (you can verify this by applying the adiabatic equation to calculate the minimum conductor size).

[2] Small flexes used to be more common here (in the '70s), in those cases the maker was taking advantage of the availability of better fault protection from 3A fuses since there was no requirement for EU compatibility, and hence the advantage of a lighter flex could be worth having.

[Man at B&Q]

Do you extect him to understand that?

I admire your ability to compose such a well reasoned, rational and polite response to Jerry.

MBQ

[John Rumm]

Well I figured he could always ask if unsure. ;-)

i.e. CBA to do the sums at the time. However for the sake of completeness:

Say you take the maximum earth loop impedance on a B32 MCB protected circuit as 1.2 ohms (16th edtn figure). Allow 36 mOhms/m for 0.5mm^2 flex - say a round trip of 3m total on a 1.5m lead, that is say another

0.01 ohms if the short is at the far end. So a PSCC of 230/1.21 = 190A. Still plenty to open a 13A fuse in 0.1 secs (or for that matter B32 MCB!). So we get sqrt( 190^2 x 0.1 ) / 115 = 0.52mm^2 minimum CSA. So a 0.75mm^2 flex will be absolutely fine, and even 0.5mm^2 is probably ok as well.

Well I think we have done pretty much all aspects to death now. I am sure Jerry is no less convinced of his assertions than when we started, but since some of the same points are occasionally made by others, there is some value in having the discussion and looking at the details, if for no other reason that it highlights why "my preferred protected device/circuit topology/national practice is self evidently better than yours" type arguments tend to be rather too simplistic. There may be grains of truth, but as ever the devil is in the detail.

[Jerry]

[ in reply to John Rumm ]

Says the person who needs to use both Hotmail and Google groups, says far more about YOUR own ability to understand anything beyond Janet and John books some what questionable, after all it's not rocket science to find/configure both POP/smtp and nntp accounts...

[Jerry]

: : Well I figured he could always ask if unsure. ;-) :

What is the point asking those who will not question regulations, from were I'm sitting it looks like it's people like you John who doesn't actually understand, after all anyone can read/cite [1] the regs, not everyone can understand to the point of

*questioning* the validity of the current regs... [1] which, IIRC, is exactly what "Dr Drivel" used to do with plumbing thread

[Jerry]

Yes I have, but as I said, you might not have meant to say it but that doesn't change the fact that it is what you said.

[Man at B&Q]

[e-mail]...

When you can no longer attack the message, attack the medium.

You are SO predictable.

MBQ

[Man at B&Q]

[e-mail]...

And when that fails, resort to Ad Hominem.

Wht not stick to the issue being dicussed? I'm perfectly happy to debate it with you, so long as you desist from putting words in my mouth.

MBQ

[Man at B&Q]

[e-mail]...

I don't *need* to use either. Where do you get that idea?

The grammar in that sentence is certainly questionable.

Go teach your granny to suck eggs.

MBQ

[Jerry]

: And when that fails, resort to Ad Hominem.

Do you also make a habit of talking about your own behaviour "Man at B&Q" all the time when away from Usenet?...

: Wht not stick to the issue being dicussed?

Indeed why don't you, "Man at B&Q", you don't seem to have contributed anything (of consequence) to the discussion...

: I'm perfectly happy to debate it with you, so long as : you desist from putting words in my mouth.

Whilst I'm prepared to accept that you might not have meant to say what you did the problem is you did say what you said...

[Jerry]

: > Says the person who needs to use both Hotmail and Google groups,

: I don't *need* to use either. Where do you get that idea? : :

Even worse that you *choose* to use Mickey-Mouse Usenet access and e-mail then...