Yes folks, its cheaper to heat with electricity!

[Duncan Wood]

Bizarrely, given that was blamed on the wind chill, they'd actually be usefull.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Well less unfounded principle, than principle founded on prejudice.

There is a hazy sort of credo running through gren/naturalist thinking, and that is really more a rejection of technology by people who are scared of it, don't understand it, and want to return to some Romantic idealised Naturalism.

I will relate again the response of my one time neighbour and landlord, a Fenland potato farmer, who related how before tractors, they used to pick the potatoes from the fields by hand.

"And what would you do if there were no tractors and you had to do it again?" asked the schoolgirl on a 'field trip'

"I should probably commit suicide" was his considered response.

I remember another anecdote, from the early days of the Apple Mac. Allegedly Apple set a competition for 'the most inventive thing you could do with an Apple Mac, given suitable software and peripheral equipment"

Some dry wit remarked "with *suitable software and peripherals*, I would use an Apple Mac to put a man on the moon"

Frankly, as an engineer, most of the problem is that very few people ARE engineers, and even fewer engineers get anywhere near government.

Its easy enough to talk in theoretical terms, but engineers are used to thinking it terms of practical solutions, and furthermore, outside of the USA anyway, in practical solutions that can be *economically implemented*.

An engineer, Neville Shute remarked, is someone "who can do for sixpence what any damn fool can do for a quid".

Undersea cables are around a million quid a mile at GW capacity.

Nuclear power stations are about a billion quid a gigawatt.

It doesn't take more than 11+ maths (or these days, an advanced degree in Mathematics from Burnham on Crouch University of the mentally challenged) to work out that puts a distinct restraint on e.g. carrying power from the Congo to the UK or whatever.

And makes the value of a North Sea super ring pretty arguable.

IF all we have is windmills, and IF teh north sea is going to be a littered with them as the pavement outside McDonald's is littered with rubbish on a Saturday night, well, yes, then thats a sensible solution.

But the cost is many times greater than the alternatives.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Not if we couldn't move the electricity around.

[Steve Firth]

FFS who the hell was talking about transmission of power from the Congo to the UK?

[Steve Firth]

No, construction started in 1996. The cost of the project is estimated at EUR 550 million.

[Roland Perry]

In message , at 11:52:10 on Sun, 27 Apr 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:

A more rational response would be "cultivate a smaller field and rejoice in the fact that if there were no tractors, the potatoes I was picking would be worth a pound each".

[Andy Hall]

Is it still or was that 1996 prices?

It seems rather little for something like that.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Thats with overruns, is about right for what is probably around 5-600 miles of cable.

What capacity is it?

[The Natural Philosopher]

..and the Irish would be starving again, and vavailable as low cost labour to pick em'

Yeah, right.

[Roland Perry]

In message , at 12:54:57 on Sun, 27 Apr 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:

If there are no tractors, something pretty serious is going on.

[Steve Firth]

The cable is 500km, not 500 miles. It's the first stage, the NorNed from Norway to Holland. I've no idea if the rest of the project will ever get built.

"More than 700MW at 450KV DC"

[Steve Firth]

2006, the price is for the first section from Norway to the Netherlands. I've no idea if the rest will ever get built.

[Espen Koht]

Construction started in 2005 not 1996, and should be in testing around now after delays due to a cable fault.

[Steve Firth]

The project started in 1996, the actual construction was due to be completed in 2000. The project was shelved from 2000 to 2006.

[Andy Wade]

[UK-Norway interconnector]

That's more or less what it says at

does look as if the Netherlands one will go ahead though:

[The Natural Philosopher]

And you think that oil prices looking set to hit $150 a barrel isn't pretty serious?

Basically we are running into a regime,, where, as I tried to mention in the thread title, an economic (never mind te eco-bollocks) reason will tip us into a new way of organising industrial and social life.

For me, the decision is simplistic. Should I put on the upstairs central heating? or plug in a few hundred watts of convector heater?

The short answer, is run the heater, at current prices, especially after midnight.

And the little wood burner in the bedroom.

And seriously look at a ground based heat pump.

[The Natural Philosopher]

So a million euros a kilometer, as against a million quid a mile. Within 'experimental errors'

What is the capacity? I had it in mind it was a couple of Gigawatts.

[Roland Perry]

In message , at 15:48:14 on Sun, 27 Apr 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:

Oil at more than $250 a barrel might become inconvenient, but would it cause the extinction of tractors?

12.30 perhaps.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

So you think it's possible to build a hydro-electric scheme with no effect on the environment? You may not care about it but others may do.

[The Natural Philosopher]

You could put up a 350MW nuclear station for less than that...