A simple question, but one that is not answered from the Yale website.
Are their 1109 and X5 rim cylinders interchangeable. I.e. I have an old 1109 cylinder in the summerhouse. The local shed doesn't seem to stock the 1109, but does have the X5. Can I just replace it with that?
I stupidly bought an ERA cylinder yesterday, thinking that would fit - and it wouldn't. And of course, once I'd opened the rotten packaging, I'm stuck with it now! :(
Cheers
JW
Why wouldn't the ERA cylinder fit?
A Standard ERA cylinder is compatible with a Yale 1109. Unless, of course your summerhouse door is very thin and you bought a 6-pin ERA, which has a longer body than an 1109.
A Yale X5 is 6-pin, so it has a longer body than an 1109. The dimensions are on the Yale website.
The screw holes are closer together on the ERA. So it was incompatible with the rest of the lock assembly (i.e. the integral lock, which is like a mortise, but with just the flat lock part, and has the thin slit for the cylinder lock's 'rod', and also the 'knob' which is on the inside, which simply turns to temporarily lock it on the inside.
No - was a standard ERA cylinder.
Agreed - but there is no detail of the fixing hole spacings - which was the issue between the 1109 and the ERA. I want to know if it's the same between the 1109 and the X5. Slight differences in length I can work around - but not the fixing hole issue, as the fixing screws go through the entire assembly. :(
OK, I'm not immediately familiar with the lock body you describe. A photo would be good.
I do, however have a Yale 1109 and an ERA cylinder in front of me and the difference in fixing hole spacing is tiny. Yale 1109 is 20.4mm between centres and ERA is 20.7mm. I would be looking to take a round file to the lock body and fettle it to fit the ERA cylinder - or do you have a significantly larger difference with your samples?
Given that there's usually a separate plate to affix the cylinder to the door (and a locksmith would think nothing of filing one of the holes to fit a slightly different cylinder), the fixing centres are not critical, so there's no reason to expect the X5 to have exactly the same fixing centres as the 1109. Unfortunately, I don't have an X5 to hand to measure it.
What's wrong with the original 1109 cylinder anyway? One thing you could do is remove the cylinder pins from the ERA and put them in the 1109 and use the ERA keys with the 1109 cylinder!
One of the circlips on the old cylinder has broken, so the 'rod' is not fixed to the moving barrel any more. And the old circlip is nothing like the new one - and I've no idea where it is now. :(
I've just been to B&Q, and the guy opened a new X5 cylinder for me. Just like the ERA, the fixing holes are different to my lock. So it seems that, yes, 1109 is compatible with X5 is compatible with ERA. But unfortunately, my old cylinder is not compatible with any of those. I'd say my fixing holes are about 3mm out overall - which is far too much when assembling with two other metal objects.
I've no idea how old it is. For all intents and purposes, it looks similar to an 1109. It is definitely a Yale, and has the letters Y and R on the rear. The PIN cover looks a little different to the newer ones though. It has what looks like a small slideable plate over it. If I knew no better (and I do know no better), I'd reckon I had an old Imperial-sized cylinder, and that all the new ones are metric (obviously!) Does that sound feasible?
My problem, re: the fixing - is that the internal bolt and rear twist handle all share the same mounting bolt. Here are some pics:
Cheers
JW
Not really. On the whole, English locks are still imperial, they just give dimensions in metric. The hole in the wood is the same size it always was.
idea what you meant! It may well be that the cylinder is not an 1109 at all, but is a special with the fixing holes closer together to match the (probably 5/8" nominal) separation of the two rack bolt screws.
So, your actual problem is that you're missing a circlip and the ERA one isn't compatible?
Well, if it's any consolation, I can tell you that the ERA circlip is almost exactly the same as a modern 1109 circlip.
I just had a rummage and a Sterling 1109-clone has 20.4mm separation; whilst an old (1970's) Union cylinder was nearer 19mm (i.e. 3/4").
Just out of interest, your picture of the rear of cylinder suggests that the ERA circlip would work. What's the problem? And why do you think that there's more than one circlip on the back of your cylinder?
Cheers, DaveyOz
How come you know so much about locks Dave?
Thanks Dave - after much faffing around, I've effectively put the innards of the ERA lock into the body of the Yale. Seems to work OK. What I thought was an extra circlip must just have been another piece of metal which held in the old rod somehow - it was broken anyway. But due to a slight extra length of the new innards, what I've done is use both the Yale circlip and the ERA circlip to hold the new innards in - so that I can get the key out - if that makes sense.
Thanks for all of your help.
What I not notice though, is that with the old lock, I seemed to be able to take the key out at various positions. With the new innards - it has to be in the 6 o'clock position...
JW
Both sides of my family are from the West Midlands. Both my Granddads were in the steel industry, but other branches of the family (who lived further north, in and around Willenhall) were in the lockmaking industry and latterly, the locksmithing trade. I still have family in the locksmith trade, but I don't live near them and they have mostly retired, passed on or are sufficiently removed that I don't know them very well.
For me, I am an electrical/electronics engineer and have largely eschewed mechanical engineering until the last few years when I have taken an interest in my wider heritage and, having become interested in mechanical engineering and locksmithing, I have acquired some old stuff and some old knowledge left over from various relatives' businesses and sheds. eBay and t'internet have been invaluable resources also.
However, I'm still no expert and probably never will be. Not enough on-the-job practical experience!
I have to say I was wondering about that. I presume you can only operate the knob on the inside if you have the correct key inserted in the outside? Or does the rack bolt have a clutch mechanism which allows a disconnect between the knob and the key?
You should *not* have been able to remove the Yale key from the cylinder in any other position except vertical-with-the-wiggly-side-up.
If you *could* remove the key at other angles then that implies that the bitting has a particular pattern and the key is quite worn. As you don't include the key in your photo, I can't tell. ;-(
It comes as no surprise, however, that you can only remove the new ERA key in the "conventional" position.
Yes, with hindsight, the old situation was odd. Something must have been well past it's use-by date.
There is no clutch mechanism. The cylinder is effectively connected straight onto the knob. I guess I can still latch it from the inside, but as you say, the key must be in the lock - I'm not so keen on that now! :-) However, if I want to take the key out of the lock - then the bolt is extended - so I can't even close the door. What a weird and pretty much useless lock!!
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