Working with Copper

I hope some knowledgable people out there can give me some advice!

I'm intending to use copper microbore (8mm & 10mm) to make a "twisting garden sculpture. I'd like to know what colour this will end up whe left outside, as I don't know whether microbore is "annealed" o "enamelled" or not treated at all.

I may also incorporate some smaller wire for decoration - I' considering Enamelled Copper Wire (2mm) which I assume would sta "shiny" even outside? Or possibly annealed copper wire (like that use for binding bonsai trees!) - I believe the latter would end up a dul sort of brown colour - am I right? (probably not!!)

Many thanks in advance of any kindly forthcoming help..

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Reply to
perrych7btinternet.com.1n4mxp
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I hope some knowledgable people out there can give me some advice!

I'm intending to use copper microbore (8mm & 10mm) to make a "twisting garden sculpture. I'd like to know what colour this will end up whe left outside, as I don't know whether microbore is "annealed" o "enamelled" or not treated at all.

I may also incorporate some smaller wire for decoration - I' considering Enamelled Copper Wire (2mm) which I assume would sta "shiny" even outside? Or possibly annealed copper wire (like that use for binding bonsai trees!) - I believe the latter would end up a dul sort of brown colour - am I right? (probably not!!)

Many thanks in advance of any kindly forthcoming help...

Chip

***APOLOGIES FOR POSTING TWICE IN ERROR!!**

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Reply to
perrych7btinternet.com.1n4mxo

It will end up green. Best paint it.

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Reply to
Doctor Evil

Not for a very long time and then probably only if there is a lot of acid rain.

Colin Bignell

Reply to
nightjar

have a look at this stuff on there web site

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Reply to
smudger

Sort of ruins the point of using it! It will go greenish after a long time, depending on conditions. He could of course use the odd bit of brasso to polish it up ;o)

a
Reply to
al

"twisting"

green

dirty at first, then later green

green

NT

Reply to
bigcat

Green. Copper carbonate.

Yes.

Or possibly annealed copper wire (like that used

No. copper goes red or brown from oxides fairly quickly, but prlonged exposure to rain causes that to turn to carbonet.

You can use some chemical - can't remember what it is - to blacken copper as used in copper bas relief work, but you need a lacquer over the top to prevent it going the carbonate route.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

It happens in a year or so to some extent: The really nice overall green patina on copper ropoves takes a few years to develop.

All rain is acid due to dissolved Co2.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

No. enamelling is TOUGH. It will last years outside without degradation. a

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

It's annealed, not enamelled. It'll go dirty brown quite quickly. If you're after a verdigris finish it won't, if that's the last thing you want it will :-)

Acid flux left around soldered joints seems to give verdigris quite quickly.

Enamelled wire would probably keep its colour longer, but wouldn't then match your sculpture. You could probably acquire un-enamelled wire of various grades for the asking from an electrician or skip: just strip it from PVC cable.

Reply to
John Stumbles

Properly annealed metals should retain their annealed appearance almost indefinitely.

a
Reply to
al

I have some decorative copper pipework associated with my pond that is still brown after seven years and that shows no signs of going green.

However, carbonic acid is a very weak acid. It is more effective at attacking the copper if working in concert with sulphurous acid.

Colin Bignell

Reply to
nightjar

I tend to think they put some laquer on the pipe at production to keep it shiny. I do outdoor sculpture with copper and first use fine steel wool to get down to bare metal, chemically clean with good old malt vinegar (how people use that stuff as food flavouring !) and then with a bit of practice apply a cupric nitrate solution. Hey presto 3 years worth of patination in an hour. If you want to keep it a plain old brown just apply some wax to keep the acid rain away.

Reply to
David

Its probably lacquered then.

I think the route that copper gioes is basically surface oxidation to cuprous oxide, which then works with carbonic acide to go to copper carbonate.

Copper sulpate as such is blue, not green and water soluble - though sulphide is very black IIRC.

All I know is that in the presence of hard water (leaks/condenstaion) on my plumbing green deposits occur very quickly - especially on HW pipes where temps are high. In fact condensation also turns pipes green.

My experiences with domestic plumbibg are if he copper is left indoors is slowly goes brwon with an oxide later, but if it gets damp outside it rapidly goes green. We are in a hard water area so that may explain the arpidity of carbonation on leaking pipes.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

What is the stuff that make it stink of rotten eggs and turns it black? Presumably a sulphite of some sort?

OI had mnoe of those 'copper picture' kits years ago. A layer of laquer has kept if a good mixture of copper and black for years...

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

Hydrogen Sulphide.

Reply to
Mary Fisher

What's an "annealed appearance" ?

Annealed pure copper will remain soft indefinitely, but most aluminium alloys will "age harden" afterwards, no matter what you do. This is inherent in the alloy's behaviour, it's not a question of "proper technique"

Copper left alone outside will darken to a tolerable dark patina, but it will take an age and is likely to have pale green spots on it. You're unlikely to get a greenish deposit overall, unless there's water or tree sap running over it, but you'll get at least one visible splodge of it. To avoid this, apply a deliberate patina immediately. Applied patina is more stable against discolouration than bare metal.

For an easy life, spend a fiver on a bottle of Liberon's "Tourmaline brown" antique patina for copper (from Axminster). It's an easy cold process - not the best in the world, but it's the best you can do for a fiver, working cold, and without shopping for awkward to locate chemistry.

If you want to colour copper, then read these two books:

"The Colouring, Bronzing and Patination of Metals"

This is _the_ book on colouring non-ferrous, non-exotics. Expensive, but worth it. Well known, so any decent library should have access to it.

Tim McCreight, "Color on Metal"

Cheaper, but less comprehensive. Worth reading if you happen across it.

Two relatively simple copper recipes with easily obtained ingredients are these:

Glossy dark brown (recipe 3.69 in CB&P)

copper carbonate 125g .880 ammonia 250cm^3 water 750cm^3

(It may be easier to replace both water and ammonia with 1litre of 26% ammonia, which is commonly available in hardware shops)

Simmer in a warm bath of this mixture at 50°C for around an hour - the colour develops slowly. Wash in hot water, then dry by tumbling in a box of sawdust . Wax afterwards.

Matt dark brown (recipe 3.70 in CB&P)

cooper sulphate 125g ferrous sulphate 100g glacial acetic acid 6.5cm^3 water 1litre

Boil for 30-40 minutes. Wash in hot water, then dry by tumbling in a box of sawdust . Wax afterwards.

Both of these recipes use common chemistry that's of little toxic hazard. However the ammonia process needs good ventilation and keeping away from aluminium (For comfort I wear a full-face mask too - a half mask is useless, as ammonia will enter via the eyes). Acetic acid in this strength is corrosive and irritating, so wear gloves and keep it out of the eyes.

Reply to
Andy Dingley

I'm glad you asked that, I was wondering too ...

Mary

Reply to
Mary Fisher

Same here; (but how can water as a result of condensation be hard ?)

Reply to
Mark Carver

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