Will the chancellor cane house owners in the budget?

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That would assume that the number of pieces of furniture is fixed, which it is not.
.andy
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says...

It is. There are only so many midwives. You don't train them overnight. Your ridiculous notion of just going private and then all will be solved is very silly. All it will mean is that rich people benefit over the poor. The midwives will be tempted over to the private sector at the expensive of the real sector.
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They can be recruited from overseas just as they are to an extent now.
The question is why don't people here want to train for this profession? Working conditions perhaps?

should they be restricted to where they can work?
.andy
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wrote:

Something I wouldn't like to do.

You just can't get a point can you. All this private Tory balls is still swishing around you noggin.
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wrote:

That is a thoroughly obnoxious suggestion as it is tantamount to supporting theft. The third world, mainly, will have sacrificed a good deal in order to train nurses presumably for their own needs, and Britain, that once great colonial paragon, then poaches them! This is fair? No, it bloody well is not! Anyone who suggests this course of action needs a lesson in removing the beam from his own eye first.

Them, and low wages. But also a lack of any will to achieve in the way we in Britain stumble from one year to the next, from one decade to the next. We have been stumbling along, almost since the end of World War II. I think we are a nation which does not like thinking. We are too content to wallow in an inferior quality of life and make it seem better by buying lots of booze and drugs. We probably don't want to become midwives, because, well, babies are messy little things, aren't they? All covered in blood and gore when they pop out! Who wants to do something useful when it's far easier to work in a call centre or stack tins of beans in Tesco's? It's our attitude to life that is the problem. We are without ambition. And all the while we have the "insurance policy" of the third world to call upon to do the jobs don't want to do, we'll be okay, won't we, won't we...?
MM
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wrote:

So it's fair and reasonable for the workers of Britain to want to improve their lot, by striking or whatever, and but unfair for a foreigner to do the same by moving to somewhere they can get better pay and conditions?
I suggest you take a long hard look at the rest of your series of ridiculous posts too, hypocrite.
Mal
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wrote:

Apples and oranges. While our low-paid workers go on strike, if need be, to obtain a higher wage, we are exploiting the third world to keep wages down. By keeping wage slow, we lose staff in key positions, who do not find working for a pittance very attractive. Thus the third world loses thrice. They lose their staff, their workers are paid low wages when they arrive in Britain, and the money that it cost to train those workers in their home country is wasted. That country's tax payers are thus out of pocket because we in Britain have (a) not paid high enough wages to attract more of the indigenous population into, say, nursing or midwifery, and (b) take advantage of third world workers who, you're right, are only too keen to want to improve their position. It's not the indivudual workers either at home or abroad you need to apportion blame to, it's the Government, or rather, successive governments.

Okay, if it floats your boat!
MM
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Couldn't agree more.
And the State is largely to blame. After all, why bother to improve one's lot when the Chancellor will take it all away from you, and if all goes pear-shaped, the State will look after you?
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On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:07:00 +0000, Mike Mitchell

What a silly idea.

Quite a bit of training happens in the first and new worlds anyway, and why should people be prevented from going to work in a different country?

Strange and inapplicable analogy.

In a fundamentally broken public system.

You might, but I certainly don't. It's a question of one's attitude. As soon as collectivist descriptions and notions are spplied to this type of issue the outcome will be poor, simply because people then believe that it is the responsibility of the group or somebody other than them to improve their lot. It isn't.

This is a very defeatist view of life and one which doesn't have to be. Fundamentally, people are happier with less involvement from the state in their affairs, yet the state seeks to increase its influence.

Some people are, and as long as the state bails them out will continue to be.

That isn't really the point, it is one of attitude and economics.

.andy
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wrote:

Do you believe, then, that it is morally justified to take advantage of tax payers in the third world and poach their workers to fulfil our needs when we have been unable or unwilling (through greed, lack of planning, lack of investment for the future, and other causes) to entice enough of our own workforce into such jobs? How come Chinese migrants can come here all the way from China, earn 11 pence an hour, get drowned, the local MP warned the Government beforehand, yet all in authority turn a blind eye and try to pass the buck on to gang masters?

I am not blaming the people, but this Government. And the previous Tory Government. And probably the Labour one before Thatcher came to power. These problems go back decades.

Sorry, what I meant was we should fix our own problems instead of relying on cheap labour from countries that can ill afford to let their workers leave en masse. It's one thing for individual workers of their own volition and in their own time and according to personal circumstances to make a decision to live and work in a foreign country. It is quite another for the Government out of desperation to actively recruit workers abroad in their thousands and persuade them to come to Britain. This is a panic measure, not joined-up Government. There was a documentary some while ago about two Australian teachers, a man and a woman, who had been thus persuaded to work in Britain, but they both left after a short time because they found that British schoolchildren so lacked discipline it was impossible to teach them. This is all part of the attitude we have.

Isolated case. I'm talking about the whole country here! Look how desperate we were to have won the rugby. Anything we do achieve is hyped to the heavens because we know there won't be anything else along to cheer about any time soon. No wonder the British went crazy over Diana when she died. The public *need* to focus on something that binds them as a nation, they *want* Britain to succeed. So why don't we? Who stole the blueprints?

Well, someone has the responsibility! Or is it just some weird continental magic which makes other countries work better, their populations more cohesive, their prisons emptier, their productivity higher? Maybe it's because we are without any effective leadership and only nominally have it in the monarchy that we are becoming so totally directionless and apathetic.

The state influence you refer to is prescriptive. I want the Liberal Democrats in government because they are less prescriptive and more presumptive. But I also want to live in a Britain which doesn't have to continually hand out anti-social behaviour orders, or send ministers abroad to preempt soccer hooliganism, or spend a fortune each and every Friday night policing the streets as the drunken youths and their girls stumble homewards. A decent society, that's all, as is evident in many other countries - and, indeed, in some isolated parts of Britain. You probably think I am exaggerating, don't you?

Other countries are far more generous to their citizens and yet there is a buzz in the air in those countries. Why is that?

Well, we can't spend our way out of the problems, else we'd be paying so much tax, there'd be no take-home pay left. We need to change our attitude.
MM
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Mike Mitchell wrote in message ...

But that's what the Libdems want to do!! Also they want to join the worthless Euro and be ruled by Brussels!
What a choice!
I don't disagree with your desire to have a responsible, hard working well paid population, but the only economy I've seen which rewards effort and efficiency and controls taxes is the US. No, it's not perfect, but apart from lacking universal healthcare, it's probably the best there is.
Regards Capitol
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On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 00:23:56 -0000, "Capitol"

Worthless?
Can't come soon enough for those of us like me who believe in Europe and want Europe to be a strong bulwark against American hegemony.

You're right. Fantastic! What a choice!

Not perfect? The US economy is dire! Look at the jobs situation! Look at the enormous deficit that the Bushies have wrought when Clinton left a surplus behind him! The state of the US economy is likely to cost Dubya the election, along with all the lies told over Iraq.
MM
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On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 00:12:00 +0000, Mike Mitchell

That's an extrapolated comparison which has little to do with the original example. Again it depends on perspective. There are, and always have been sweat shops or their equivalent. The issue is over where the line lies. For example, the hours and conditions for a junior hospital doctor aren't exactly great either, but the NHS views them as legitimate.

I don't view it as a problem.

It's still ultimately their choice. They are not being press ganged and herded onto slave ships.

That can be laid fairly and squarely at the door of creating large, faceless one size fits all schools.

Media hype. You may need it in order to feel good about yourself. I don't and tend to avoid it.

Media hysteria.

I feel pretty successful, don't you?

I'm not sure that they do

that's desirable?

is it?

I think you are describing a personal angst that comes from wanting a collectivist society and system of government that does things for you and are not finding it.
Personally I don't want it, so I don't have that angst.

It's very easy to appear nice (not that I think they are) when you don't have the responsibility of government and can have the luxury of pontificating.

countries.
.andy
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What - Phoney guilty of theft, surely not.
PS Many nurses have been poached from Africa - and quite a few of them are HIV positive, so they cannot be allowed near patients ! - and the human rights act means they cannot be sent home. Now they are a burden on our NHS, not the country where they came from. Brilliant.
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says...

This is a school boy error.
You do not train Midwives overnight but overnight you do persuade them back into the profession by offering market levels of remuneration.
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I have a relative who is a midwife fro the NHS, and she is paid fine. Never appears short of money and take very expensive hols, etc. If the private sector expanded and required midwives they would temp the existing widwives, who are not in a free market of pay. You don't get it do you?
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says...

Sure I get it.
How do you know your relative does not borrow money?
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Or rob banks too.
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The aren't leaving because of the money though !. PS Like the population as a whole, the nursing profession is well into its 50's and when they start retiring and collecting their fully inflation proof pensions (which few private employers can afford) over the next 5 years, who is going to replace them ?. The nursing profession shot itself in the foot by going for graduate entry only. Now thousands of very willing people find they can only work as nursing auxiliaries with no chance of promotion.
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snipped-for-privacy@sPydata.uklinux.net says...

Project 2000?
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