Wiki:Dishwasher

[meow2222]

Suggestions welcome...

NT

=3D=3DCosts=3D=3D

• A =A3300 machine lasting 10yrs =3D =A330/yr =3D 57p a week.

• [[Electricity]] use is comparable to power use for handwash water [[heati= ng]], so is not an added cost

• [[Detergent]] tabs 7.5p a wash

• salt =A31.30/yr =3D 2.5p/week

2 machine washes a week =3D 57+15+2.5 =3D 84.5p

If we estimate 12 minutes a day handwashing, that's 84 mins a week.

Thus each hour of handwashing avoided costs '''60p'''. Working for 60p an h= our seems to be popular.

[[Water]] use is typically less than hand washing dishes.

=3D=3DCleaning=3D=3D Baked on grease can be removed from wire oven shelves by dishwashing, which= softens it temporarily, then wiping with a copper scourer. Remove from dis= hwasher at the end of the wash cycle while its still hot, not after the ful= l cycle is finished.

Baked on grease is mostly not removed from non-stick goods, but regular was= hing can at least slow down its formation.

Egg and egg mixes can cook and stick on rather than [[clean]] off with some= wash programs. Egg needs to be cold washed to avoid it setting, and progra= ms designed for oven dishes [[heat]] up right away.

[[Wood]]en items can be dishwashed, but the wood surface slowly deteriorate= s over many washes. OK for a one off wash of tools, or for low value dispos= able goods such as cooking spatulas.

=3D=3DOther uses=3D=3D Cleaning many diy items

=3D=3D=3DDescaling=3D=3D=3D Goods can be descaled in a dishwasher by putting citric acid in the deterge= nt dispenser instead of [[detergent]].

=3D=3D=3DElectrical goods=3D=3D=3D Despite the usual advice to never mix [[electricity]] and water, a wide ran= ge of electrical goods and parts can be dishwashed. However its essential t= o choose correctly which can and can't, and also necessary to use a safe dr= ying procedure, which isn't as simple as leave till touch dry.

This should not be attempted by anyone without the necessary [[electrical]]= expertise to do it [[safe]]ly.

=3D=3D=3DCooking=3D=3D=3D The art of dishwasher cooking has a small cult following. Care is necessary= to avoid washwater & detergent contamination.

=3D=3D=3DNot able to=3D=3D=3D Dishwashers do '''not''' sterilise items.

One use we can't really recommend is cleaning the toilet seat by putting it= in with the dishes. Apparently this was actually done in one US restaurant= . Yum.

=3D=3DDetergent=3D=3D The author has used various brands of detergent tablets from cheapo to expe= nsive brands, and has never found any difference in the end result.

Separate detergent and rinse aid is cheaper than the more expensive brands = of detergent tablets.

=3D=3DSalt=3D=3D All in one tablets contain salt, but its not used in the machine to do the = same job as the salt in the salt reservoir (ie to refresh the ion exchanger= ). The salt reservoir still needs to be filled.

Only use dishwasher salt. Other grades are much too impure, and stop the io= n exchanger working, causing scaling & water spotting.

=3D=3DMaintenance=3D=3D

• Unblock spray arm jets & check they rotate ok

• [[Acid]] clean the machine

• Ensure the machine has salt in the reservoir

=3D=3DWhen it doesn't clean=3D=3D When a dishwasher doesn't clean stuff off, the following can be used:

• An overnight soak in water before dishwashing removes a lot of muck

• A 2 day soak in bleach removes more resistant muck

• Cleaning ceramics, glass & plastics with hydrochloric [[acid]] removes ju= st about everything else, including rust marks

• Vinegar soaking removes a fair range of muck films on stainless steel pan= s

• Spots of rust & muck on steel can be removed with a copper scourer or a b= rass brush in a [[die grinder]].

=3D=3DCleaning the dishwasher=3D=3D Proteins form a gloop that accummulates in some hidden parts of the machine= , causing smells, bacterial & [[mould]] growth and sometimes machine failur= e.

Ordinary washing up liquid removes muck dishwasher [[detergent]] doesn't. A= squirt of it in the machine before starting avoids buildup.

Acetic & citric [[acid]]s tackle both protein gloop and [[limescale]]. Thes= e need to be used without the usual [[detergent]], which is [[alkali]]ne.

They are far more effective used hot than cold. For it to work hot requires= delaying its release into the wash [[water]] until the main wash cycle, as= the initial rinse is cold. Ways to do this include:

*putting [[acid]] powder in the [[detergent]] drawer *or using a commercial delayed release dishwasher [[clean]]er bottle. These= use a wax insert under the cap to open only when hot. But the cost is seve= ral times as much.

=3D=3DSee also=3D=3D [[Dishwasher repair]]

[[Category:Appliances]] [[Category:Cleaning]] [[Category:Kitchens]]

[DerbyBorn]

Blimey - I haven't used salt for years. I haven't noticed any ill effect though. Will I have wrecked the ion exchange thing?

[Andrew Gabriel]

Salt is not required in soft water areas.

No, it just won't soften the water. It will work again if you start using salt again (but normally delayed by one wash cycle, depending on the brine cycle in your machine).

Some combined dishwasher tabs or rinse-aid may reduce the need for that. You might not wash things that would show (such as glassware in particular.

[Tim Lamb]

In message , Andrew Gabriel writes

Ours is fed from the house water softener so no extra salt used.

regards

>

[Graham.]

I live in North Manchester, and water doesn't come any softer than ours.

All the supermarkets around have a good stock of dish-washer salt and anti-limescale products.

It's bollocks to blame it on standardised distribution, they are very good at targeting ethnic food at stores serving the appropriate communities.

[Davey]

We live in an area designated as Very Hard Water, which is what the dishwasher gets, and I find that the Fairy Platinum sachets do a fine job alone. I stopped adding salt, and then rinse liquid, when they ran out, and everything is just fine. But don't put glasses in that exhibit signs of clouding, they will just deteriorate rapidly if you do.

[meow2222]

Feedback taken on board. Version 2...

One question though: do dishwashers survive use of caustic soda? I'm thinki= ng for paint stripping & removing baked on grease.

NT

=3D=3DCosts=3D=3D

• A =A3300 machine lasting 10yrs =3D =A330/yr =3D 57p a week.

• [[Electricity]] use is comparable to power use for handwash water [[heati= ng]], so is not an added cost

• [[Detergent]] tabs 7.5p a wash

• salt =A31.30/yr =3D 2.5p/week

2 machine washes a week =3D 57+15+2.5 =3D 84.5p

If we estimate 12 minutes a day handwashing, that's 84 mins a week.

Thus each hour of handwashing avoided costs '''60p'''. Working for 60p an h= our seems to be popular.

[[Water]] use is typically less than hand washing dishes.

=3D=3DCleaning=3D=3D Baked on grease can be removed from wire oven shelves by dishwashing, which= softens it temporarily, then wiping with a copper scourer. Remove from dis= hwasher at the end of the wash cycle while its still hot, not after the ful= l cycle is finished.

Baked on grease is mostly not removed from non-stick goods, but regular was= hing can at least slow down its formation.

Egg and egg mixes can cook and stick on rather than [[clean]] off with some= wash programs. Egg needs to be cold washed to avoid it setting, and progra= ms designed for oven dishes [[heat]] up right away.

[[Wood]]en items can be dishwashed, but the wood surface slowly deteriorate= s over many washes. OK for a one off wash of tools, or for low value dispos= able goods such as cooking spatulas.

=3D=3DOther uses=3D=3D Cleaning many diy items

=3D=3D=3DDescaling=3D=3D=3D Goods can be descaled in a dishwasher by putting citric acid in the deterge= nt dispenser instead of [[detergent]].

=3D=3D=3DElectrical goods=3D=3D=3D Despite the usual advice to never mix [[electricity]] and water, a wide ran= ge of electrical goods and parts can be dishwashed. However its essential t= o choose correctly which can and can't, and also necessary to use a safe dr= ying procedure, which isn't as simple as leave till touch dry.

This should not be attempted by anyone without the necessary [[electrical]]= expertise to do it [[safe]]ly.

=3D=3D=3DCooking=3D=3D=3D The art of dishwasher cooking has a small cult following. Care is necessary= to avoid washwater & detergent contamination.

=3D=3D=3DNot able to=3D=3D=3D Dishwashers do '''not''' sterilise items.

One use we can't really recommend is cleaning the toilet seat by putting it= in with the dishes. Apparently this was actually done in one US restaurant= . Yum.

=3D=3DGlass etching=3D=3D A minority of glassware slowly gets etched, going cloudy. There is no remed= y other than not dishwashing it any more, to avoid the cloudy area growing.

=3D=3DDetergent=3D=3D The author has used various brands of detergent tablets from cheapo to expe= nsive brands, and has never found any difference in the end result.

Separate detergent and rinse aid is cheaper than the more expensive brands = of detergent tablets.

=3D=3DSalt=3D=3D All in one tablets contain salt, but its not used in the machine to do the = same job as the salt in the salt reservoir (ie to refresh the ion exchanger= ). The salt reservoir still needs to be filled, unless your water is very s= oft.

Only use dishwasher salt. Other grades are much too impure, and stop the io= n exchanger working, causing scaling & water spotting.

=3D=3DRinse aid=3D=3D One uk.d-i-yer says his machine cleans fine with no salt or rinse aid.

=3D=3DMaintenance=3D=3D

• Unblock spray arm jets & check they rotate ok

• [[Acid]] clean the machine

• Ensure the machine has salt in the reservoir

=3D=3DWhen it doesn't clean=3D=3D When a dishwasher doesn't clean stuff off, the following can be used:

• An overnight soak in water before dishwashing removes a lot of muck

• A 2 day soak in bleach removes more resistant muck

• Cleaning ceramics, glass & plastics with hydrochloric [[acid]] removes ju= st about everything else, including rust marks

• Vinegar soaking removes a fair range of muck films on stainless steel pan= s

• Spots of rust & muck on steel can be removed with a copper scourer or a b= rass brush in a [[die grinder]].

=3D=3DCleaning the dishwasher=3D=3D Proteins form a gloop that accummulates in some hidden parts of the machine= , causing smells, bacterial & [[mould]] growth and sometimes machine failur= e.

Ordinary washing up liquid removes muck dishwasher [[detergent]] doesn't. A= squirt of it in the machine before starting avoids buildup.

Acetic & citric [[acid]]s tackle both protein gloop and [[limescale]]. Thes= e need to be used without the usual [[detergent]], which is [[alkali]]ne.

They are far more effective used hot than cold. For it to work hot requires= delaying its release into the wash [[water]] until the main wash cycle, as= the initial rinse is cold. Ways to do this include:

*putting [[acid]] powder in the [[detergent]] drawer *or using a commercial delayed release dishwasher [[clean]]er bottle. These= use a wax insert under the cap to open only when hot. But the cost is seve= ral times as much.

=3D=3DSee also=3D=3D [[Dishwasher repair]]

[[Category:Appliances]] [[Category:Cleaning]] [[Category:Kitchens]]

[Andrew Gabriel]

I would say most machines last longer than 10 years (IME), but most machines will need some repairs in that period. If you can DIY repair them (I do across the extended family), that probably makes an enormous difference to the economics of the machine (cost of parts alone is usually a tiny fraction of the cost of a callout plus heavily marked-up parts, and often no parts are needed for a repair).

[[heating]], so is not an added cost

This will depend heavily on how someone does handwashing, but I believe in most comparative tests, people use vastly more hot water hand washing than a dishwasher uses in a cycle.

You haven't taken into account the procrastination time...

seems to be popular.

I strongly suspect (but haven't actually bothered to work it out), that using tablets is probably significantly more expensive than using powder or liquid detergent, rinse-aid, and salt. In particular, tabs are sized to clean a full load, whereas with liquid or powder detergents, you can dose according to load size and grease. If you have a smaller model machine, the tabs will be even more oversized.

The other thing is that dishwasher liquid/powder detergent can be a useful thing to have around for cleaning other things - it's fantastic and incredibly quick (takes seconds) to clean even the mankiest of stainless steel sinks, hobs, etc. Need to be aware it can give you chemical burns though - not to be used in contact with your skin.

In the context of detergents, need to include a warning about children getting access to any sort of dishwasher detergent. However, one in particular is suddenly generating increasing A&E admissions, and that's the liquid pouches, which unfortunately look a bit like sweets, and have a great texture to chew on, until it bursts in your mouth. Child then ends up with a tube down their airway for a week until the swelling goes down, and in some cases operations have been required to reconstruct the throat. As yet, no one has died in this country, but it's probably just a matter of time before someone takes too long to get to A&E with a swolen blocked airway.

softens it temporarily, then wiping with a copper scourer. Remove from dishwasher at the end of the wash cycle while its still hot, not after the full cycle is finished.

washing can at least slow down its formation.

wash programs. Egg needs to be cold washed to avoid it setting, and programs designed for oven dishes [[heat]] up right away.

over many washes. OK for a one off wash of tools, or for low value disposable goods such as cooking spatulas.

dispenser instead of [[detergent]].

of electrical goods and parts can be dishwashed. However its essential to choose correctly which can and can't, and also necessary to use a safe drying procedure, which isn't as simple as leave till touch dry.

expertise to do it [[safe]]ly.

avoid washwater & detergent contamination.

with the dishes. Apparently this was actually done in one US restaurant. Yum.

expensive brands, and has never found any difference in the end result.

detergent tablets.

same job as the salt in the salt reservoir (ie to refresh the ion exchanger). The salt reservoir still needs to be filled.

exchanger working, causing scaling & water spotting.

[Needs something here about diagnosing a wash cycle which hasn't worked due to machine fault. For starters...]

• Spin spray arm by hand to make sure nothing is interfering with it.

• You can check they rotate in operation by opening the door a few times and noticing that they have changed position. If they rotate freely by hand but not when the machine operates, check the angled jets which propel the arm for blockage.

• If a spray arm is attached to and comes out with the wire rack, check the spray arm water connection. Sometimes it's a plug-in seal which fails, sometimes it's a jet into a cone, which might get blocked by something badly placed in the wire rack.

• Leaving dirty things in the dishwasher too long before washing makes them harder to clean. In the case of a large dishwasher for one person, you may need to run it more frequently than you can fill it up. If dirty plates/cutlary actually goes moldy whilst waiting to be washed, the moldy areas sometimes won't clean properly, and you should be running the machine more often.

about everything else, including rust marks

brass brush in a [[die grinder]].

causing smells, bacterial & [[mould]] growth and sometimes machine failure.

squirt of it in the machine before starting avoids buildup.

A couple of drips will do. A squirt will generate foaming inside which stops the dishwasher working, and may even cause foam to spill out and/or trigger internal leak detector shutdown. It's also difficult to rinse out the foam and a standard dishwasher rinse cycle isn't designed to do so.

need to be used without the usual [[detergent]], which is [[alkali]]ne.

delaying its release into the wash [[water]] until the main wash cycle, as the initial rinse is cold. Ways to do this include:

use a wax insert under the cap to open only when hot. But the cost is several times as much.

[Andrew Gabriel]

other than not dishwashing it any more, to avoid the cloudy area growing.

Two completely different effects here, one repairable, the other not...

Hard water marks can be left on the surface of the glass. These will wipe off with a mild acid such as vinegar. This will be prevented by using the water softener (i.e. salt in the salt dispenser) and rinse-aid to help the water run off the glass rather than drying on the glass. Some dishwasher tablets also soften the water.

Some glass is liable to clouding by action of the strong alkali detergent on the glass. This is below the surface and not repairable. This is more common with higher lead content glass, but some high lead glassware seems not to be affected. Probably not a good idea to wash expensive lead crystal glass in a dishwasher, although not all gets damaged. (There's also a risk of cracking thick glass by thermal shock.)

[Bob Eager]

We use separate powder. About half the cost of tabs when I last worked it out. We get 10kb tubs from CPC.

Our Bosch has a cold pre-rinse, also useful for loosening stuff after plate has spent days under sons' beds.

Clean filters!

[ARW]

other links here

[meow2222]

other than not dishwashing it any more, to avoid the cloudy area growing.

added

NT

[meow2222]

Have you got some figures per wash for that? When I roughly calculated it I= concluded there was no gain getting them separately.

I'm pretty sure all machines have

yup, added

NT

[Richard]

Sheer idle curiosity, what water softener system do you use?

[meow2222]

its difficult picking a figure with any accuracy. The point I was really lo= oking to make is that even if it only lasts 10 years, its still 60p an hour= .

eating]], so is not an added cost

an hour seems to be popular.

I worked it out months back, and saw no gain in using powders. If anyone ha= s a cost per wash for them...

hich softens it temporarily, then wiping with a copper scourer. Remove from= dishwasher at the end of the wash cycle while its still hot, not after the= full cycle is finished.

washing can at least slow down its formation.

some wash programs. Egg needs to be cold washed to avoid it setting, and pr= ograms designed for oven dishes [[heat]] up right away.

rates over many washes. OK for a one off wash of tools, or for low value di= sposable goods such as cooking spatulas.

ergent dispenser instead of [[detergent]].

range of electrical goods and parts can be dishwashed. However its essenti= al to choose correctly which can and can't, and also necessary to use a saf= e drying procedure, which isn't as simple as leave till touch dry.

al]] expertise to do it [[safe]]ly.

sary to avoid washwater & detergent contamination.

g it in with the dishes. Apparently this was actually done in one US restau= rant. Yum.

expensive brands, and has never found any difference in the end result.

nds of detergent tablets.

the same job as the salt in the salt reservoir (ie to refresh the ion excha= nger). The salt reservoir still needs to be filled.

e ion exchanger working, causing scaling & water spotting.

I'm inclined to leave faults and repairs to another article.=20

Right, I've tackled that in the article now, albeit not the way you're sugg= esting there. See what you think.

s just about everything else, including rust marks

a brass brush in a [[die grinder]].

hine, causing smells, bacterial & [[mould]] growth and sometimes machine fa= ilure.

t. A squirt of it in the machine before starting avoids buildup.

[meow2222]

Latest version...

This applies to domestic '''dishwashers'''. Catering machines are quite dif= ferent.

=3D=3DCosts=3D=3D

• A =A3300 machine lasting 10yrs =3D =A330/yr =3D 57p a week.

• [[Electricity]] use is comparable to power use for handwash water [[heati= ng]], so is not an added cost

• [[Detergent]] tabs 7.5p a wash

• salt =A31.30/yr =3D 2.5p/week

2 machine washes a week =3D 57+15+2.5 =3D 84.5p

If we estimate 12 minutes a day handwashing, that's 84 mins a week.

Thus each hour of handwashing avoided costs '''60p'''. Working for 60p an h= our seems to be popular.

[[Water]] use is typically less than hand washing dishes.

=3D=3DCleaning=3D=3D Baked on grease can be removed from wire oven shelves by dishwashing, which= softens it temporarily, then wiping with a copper scourer. Remove from dis= hwasher at the end of the wash cycle while its still hot, not after the ful= l cycle is finished.

Baked on grease is mostly not removed from non-stick goods, but regular was= hing can at least slow down its formation.

Egg and egg mixes can cook and stick on rather than [[clean]] off with some= wash programs. Egg needs to be cold washed to avoid it setting, and progra= ms designed for oven dishes [[heat]] up right away.

[[Wood]]en items can be dishwashed, but the wood surface slowly deteriorate= s over many washes. OK for a one off wash of tools, or for low value dispos= able goods such as cooking spatulas.

=3D=3DOther uses=3D=3D Cleaning many diy items

=3D=3D=3DDescaling=3D=3D=3D Goods can be descaled in a dishwasher by putting citric acid in the deterge= nt dispenser instead of [[detergent]].

=3D=3D=3DElectrical goods=3D=3D=3D Despite the usual advice to never mix [[electricity]] and water, a wide ran= ge of electrical goods and parts can be dishwashed. However its essential t= o choose correctly which can and can't, and also necessary to use a safe dr= ying procedure, which isn't as simple as leave till touch dry.

This should not be attempted by anyone without the necessary [[electrical]]= expertise to do it [[safe]]ly.

=3D=3D=3DCooking=3D=3D=3D The art of dishwasher cooking has a small cult following. Care is necessary= to avoid washwater & detergent contamination.

=3D=3D=3DNot able to=3D=3D=3D Dishwashers do '''not''' sterilise items.

One use we can't really recommend is cleaning the toilet seat by putting it= in with the dishes. Apparently this was actually done in one US restaurant= . Yum.

=3D=3DGlass etching=3D=3D A small percentage of glassware slowly gets etched, going cloudy. Some lead= glass is vulnerable, some isn't. Is caused by the hot alkali, and there's = no remedy other than not dishwashing it, to avoid the cloudy area growing.

Its also possible to get hard water desposits on glass if salt & rinse aid = aren't used. These come off with vinegar.

=3D=3DDetergent=3D=3D The author has used various brands of detergent tablets from cheapo to expe= nsive brands, and has never found any difference in the end result.

Separate detergent and rinse aid is cheaper than the more expensive brands = of detergent tablets.

Dishwasher detergent is also very good at cleaning hobs, sinks etc. Use it = with hot water and avoid skin contact, it can cause chemical burns.

=3D=3DSalt=3D=3D All in one tablets contain salt, but its not used in the machine to do the = same job as the salt in the salt reservoir (ie to refresh the ion exchanger= ). The salt reservoir still needs to be filled, unless your water is very s= oft.

Only use dishwasher salt. Other grades are much too impure, and stop the io= n exchanger working, causing scaling & water spotting.

=3D=3DRinse aid=3D=3D One uk.d-i-yer says his machine cleans fine with no salt or rinse aid.

=3D=3DMaintenance=3D=3D

• Unblock spray arm jets & check they rotate ok

• [[Acid]] clean the machine

• Ensure the machine has salt in the reservoir

• Clean filters

=3D=3DWhen it doesn't clean=3D=3D When a dishwasher doesn't clean stuff off, the following can be used:

• An overnight soak in water before dishwashing removes a lot of muck

• A 2 day soak in bleach removes more resistant muck

• Cleaning ceramics, glass & plastics with hydrochloric [[acid]] removes ju= st about everything else, including rust marks

• Vinegar soaking removes a fair range of muck films on stainless steel pan= s

• Spots of rust & muck on steel can be removed with a copper scourer or a b= rass brush in a [[die grinder]].

=3D=3DCleaning the dishwasher=3D=3D Proteins form a gloop that accummulates in some hidden parts of the machine= , causing smells, bacterial & [[mould]] growth and sometimes machine failur= e.

Ordinary washing up liquid removes muck dishwasher [[detergent]] doesn't. A= few drips of it in the machine before starting avoids buildup. Don't overd= o it.

Acetic & citric [[acid]]s tackle both protein gloop and [[limescale]]. Thes= e need to be used without the usual [[detergent]], which is [[alkali]]ne.

They are far more effective used hot than cold. For it to work hot requires= delaying its release into the wash [[water]] until the main wash cycle, as= the initial rinse is cold. Ways to do this include:

*putting [[acid]] powder in the [[detergent]] drawer *or using a commercial delayed release dishwasher [[clean]]er bottle. These= use a wax insert under the cap to open only when hot. But the cost is seve= ral times as much.

=3D=3DChild safety=3D=3D Dishwasher detergents are alkaline, and need to be kept well away from youn= g children and animals.=20

Liquid pouches in particular have caused A&E admissions. They look a bit li= ke sweets, and have a great texture to chew on, until it bursts in the mout= h. Child then ends up with a tube down their airway for a week until the sw= elling goes down, and in some cases operations have been required to recons= truct the throat.

=3D=3DSmell & mould=3D=3D Closing the door for days on end with dirty dishes inside causes mould & sm= ells. Leave the door ajar and this doesn't normally happen, the air circula= tion plus drying prevent it.

=3D=3DSee also=3D=3D [[Dishwasher repair]]

[[Category:Appliances]] [[Category:Cleaning]] [[Category:Kitchens]]

[Tim Lamb]

In message , Richard writes

Nuwave MD600, salt tablets and on metered re-gen. Not cheap but uses much less salt than the timed predecessor.

[Bob Eager]

I just worked it out. About 4.6p per wash.

Methodology: put lots of scoops on weighing machine and weigh it. Divide number (grams) into 10000 => number of washes. Divide that into cost of tub. Carriage is free as I use CPC regularly.

May be more expensive depending on the powder bought.

[meow2222]

Cheers. The price sounds about the same as budget brand tablets.

NT

[Richard Russell]

Surely they don't. The ones I've seen mention 'salt effect', in other words they contain some water-softening ingredient which is supposed to reduce or eliminate the need for salt to regenerate the ion- exchange resin. But I would have thought NaCl itself was an entirely unsuitable ingredient.

Richard.