Whining gearbox - any remedies?

But you didn't, you left your clap-trap in tact.

Reply to
:::Jerry::::
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I worked there for 2 months, and those tribologists never looked like fairies to me. They ran their own cars on synthetics and tested the oil for degradation every month or so before changing. They would change the filter at approx the makers intervals. One went 60,000 miles before an oil change in a SAAB.

Absolute crap!!!! That is ye old ale house talk. The only thing you have correct is that they have longevity. 80-90% of an engines wear using mineral oils is in the start up phase. This is where synthetics score. The oil is thin at low temperatures and thicker at higher temperatures, the opposite to mineral which can be like treacle in below zero conditions and like gnats piss at high temperatures. As soon as the crank is turned the oil is at the bearings, far quicker than thick treacle mineral oil, which only starts to lubricate properly when fully warmed up. Mineral oil will lubricate properly at start up, but only if you do what ships engineers do, who pre-heat the engines water and oil and get the oil pressure to normal before turning the crank. As you don't do that in a car your wear factor on start-up using minerals oils is phenomenal, whereas with synthetics the wear factor is so minimal to not worth considering.

Then there is the hot spots in an engine that will bake mineral oils onto metal. For e.g, in the old A series the cam followers sometimes would be black baked on and flaky oil deposits. Engine hot spots can be in traffics jams as the water pump is not turning fast enough to cool properly. Variable speed electric water pumps are far better in this respect as they can give the flow to what the engine demands, not the hit and miss from a crank speed.

Hot spots in an engine will do no harm to synthetic oil and synthetic oils will also cool better, they take heat away better than mineral oils.

Synthetic oil also has far high shear. That is it is very difficult to compress and keeps metal surfaces apart far better than mineral oils. The ultimate aim of lubrication.

It will still be as good as new on a 9,000 miles service interval, while mineral will be far past its best after 3-4,000 miles.

When burnt in the combustion chamber it does far less harm to the cat than mineral oils. Cats last far, far longer when run with synthetic oils.

You can change mineral oils every weekend, but it will still not lubricate and protect better than synthetics. It is as simple as that.

Now read all this and do not respond with the usual illiterate crap. And silly Jerry, just do not respond at all.

Please keep using the cheapest crappy supermarket mineral oil you can find. Be my guest. The info above is not for your benefits as others will read it.

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Reply to
Doctor Evil

...........SSSNNIIPPP........

Dave,

I can't believe you just wrote that unless,

a) someone is impersonating you....then it wouldn't have been you anyway, b) you are bored and felt like starting a flame war c) you have had several too many tonight....

Synthetic oils are WAY better than conventional mineral oils, both in lubricity and longevity for starters. They resist temperature extremes better, both more fluid when cold and by getting thicker at elevated temperatures by uncoiling their molecules.... they are more slippery to the extent that in some wet clutch motorcycle engines ( and doubtless countless other applications) they are excluded from being able to be used as the clutch would slip.

If they were little better then I am sure the manufacturers would have been rumbled and not be able to sell enough of the stuff to make it viable, certainly not at the price they demand.

The bit about the suggestion that it "stopped wear in abused engines at extremely low mileages" is debateable - if parts are so slack that they are bashing themselves into oblivion then nothing will stop that, but that's not my point or argument ...

Nick

Reply to
nick smith

Not totally true.

With fully synth oils you can control viscosity changes with temperature better, so get better circulation when cold and less chance of breakdown when hot.

As well,.

This make sthemn very useful for highlty stressed engines, and for engines that may run in cold climates and yet get very hot as well.

Not really your average shopping trolley though.

Your post suggested they stopped wear in

What mind would that be Dave?

>
Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

And you now consider yourself an expert ! Dream on...

Reply to
:::Jerry::::

It all goes back to my point, that, like gold plated litz stranded HiFi cables, there are some advantages, but overall in most applications the differences are so slight as to be totally not worth the extra cash.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

Only were the engine has been designed to use such oil, are you seriously suggesting that someone should use synthetic oils in a Ford Pop 100E engine ?

They resist temperature extremes better, both more fluid when

Exactly, in some situations they will cause more problems that they solve, this whole thread started because 'top gear' said bung synthetic in - it will cure all your problems - that is simply un true.

Well, lets put it this way, K&N manage to sell enough 'Go Faster' air filters, Cat-O-clean sell enough 'magic fluid' to make marketing it worthwhile to those who believe all the hype and non of the realities so why not those marketing synthetic oils ?...

Reply to
:::Jerry::::

I can. Have you read what he writes?

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Reply to
Doctor Evil

Read my post on this, on startup protection.

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Reply to
Doctor Evil

C'mon. K & N flters would indeed with a tuned engine with wild camshaft, oversize carbs, opened up ports, and a tuned exhaust, add another few bhp.

Of course in the average shopping trolley, they were irrelevant.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

Now let me see. They tested the oil every month or so before changing. Any decent *dino* oil will do 10,000 miles of easy use ok. So you're talking about a vehicle doing 120,000 miles a year?

Or are you just wanting to pick an argument about whether synthetic lasts longer than dino? Don't bother. I agree with you.

So any engine using non synthetic will wear out 'quickly'? Is this in the same vein as your boilers which are over 100% efficient? Ie, you just don't understand anything other than adverts?

Oh dear. You don't understand viscosity either? You're making a fool of yourself - again...

I'm surprised engines lasted long enough for motoring to become popular.

You'll be telling us next to run our central heating pumps on maximum because the house will heat up faster. You prat.

Your magic figures again. Completely devoid of any qualifications.

The correct response to this would be 'snip the usual IMM misinformation based on a total misunderstanding of principles, but just reading adverts' So nothing new there.

Actually, some 'supermarket' oil is really rather good at the price. And better than heavily advertised oils at many times the price. Clue. Look at the specs on the can. They ain't advertising. They're properly controlled.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

None of those.

We're discussing cars here. Normal cars of the Cavalier sort as our resident idiot has decided to make his point with. So don't have wet clutches. FFS, adding Molyslip - years ago - to motorbike gearboxes made the clutch slip - as it would to an auto box. But oil makers don't add it to engine oil today - or ever. Wet clutches requirements just ain't the same as other things.

It is excellent at increasing oil change intervals. Near enough full stop. Generally, engines have been exceeding the average economic life of the

*entire* car for some many years now - unless they suffer a failure unrelated to the lubrication system. If you don't believe me, try and find a local engine reconditioner who can re-bore and grind cranks, etc. At one time every small town had one.

It *was* mine. ;-)

Our resident clown (Adam, IMM, Dr Evil, John or whatever) was suggesting that modern engines were failing regularly at very low mileages until he 'discovered' synthetic oil. He's talking the usual s**te.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

Please keep using crap, cheap minerals oil. Please do. Synthetic oils are not for you at all. Don't let any of the sensible people here be in your way. Walk into the local cheapo supermarket with your chest sticking out and say with loud voice, "cheap crappy oil please". Keep it in your car engine for at least 30,000 miles. Please do. You deserve each other.

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Reply to
Doctor Evil

A standard filter with a "tuned engine with wild camshaft, oversize carbs, opened up ports, and a tuned exhaust, add another few bhp"

Obvious typo fixed

Reply to
No Spam

No. You are actually wrong there.

I went down this route once, with a triumph engine I still actually have.

Tests were done, and it went like this

- addition of free flow exhaust 15 bhp.

- addition of larger carburettors - 10 bhp

- camshaft upgrade (and attendant needle changes in the SU's) - 5-15bhp depending on the profile.

- K & N pancake filters as against standard boxed up lump - 5 bhp.

That was where I stopped, because things like

- twin choke weber and manifold to suit - another 3-4bhp

- over sized valves and a re-worked head for another 3-4bhp

got silly, and the bottom end was already struggling to cope.

The point being that at the high gas flow rates I could then get, the K & N's did offer a few percent more power.

At lower rates - without the rest of the stuff - they really made sod all difference except to the noise.

Each engine has its key spot - the point at which you can improve gas flow the most - its gas flow bottleneck. Or its has maybe a lubrication weakness, or a crankcase weakness - remember Andy Rouse and the illegal cross-bolted crank bearings to allow HIS rover 3.5's to do more RPM than anyone else's without disintegrating?

On BMC B series engines for example, it was the actual cylinder head. Nothing you did to the exhaust or carbs or camshaft made any difference

- a head change with gas flowed ports did.

A series engines with Siamesed ports benefited hugely from better exhausts, bigger carbs and a hotter camshaft.

The triumph 1500 engine I had was similar, except the head design was better. Its weakness was the three bearing crankshaft.

For engines were also quite amenable to tuning, but had weak camshafts IIRC.

Its precisely analogous to fully synth oil: IF you want the ultimate power and you tune an engine way up beyond its normal state of tune, things like K & N filters, oil coolers, fully synth oil etc. etc. get you more power and reliability.

But simply sticking them on an engine in standard tune is pin-stripe engineering at its worst.

The sort of BS that attracts idiots like IMM and so on. They read the blurb 'in tests on our (completely non standard and nothing like your shopping trolley) car product XYZ showed a 15% increase in engine power/relaibility/bird-pulling ability' etc etc.

And then naively assume that it will have the same effect on their peugot 305 or whatever.

The most remarkable accidental increase in power happened to me whilst struggling to swap in an A series engine in a Midget. It fell over and broke the exhaust manifold.

The cheapest I could find in a hurry was a long center branch welded steel thing. That alone added 8mph to the cars top speed.

I could get another 1-2mph out of 5 star petrol, and about another 3mph on a cold misty morning.

Oil? Made naff all difference really. Those engines only did about 60k miles whatever you did to em, apart from a new bearing set every 30,000.

My point? In a tuning scenario, all this stuff can and does make useful and measurable differences. In a shopping trolley scenario, it may make a measurable difference, but it is seldom significant. And almost never worth the extra expense.

If you want an engine and tranmission to last, change the oil frequently, don't hammer it till fully warm, or when very hot, don't over rev it, double declutch and treat your synchro gently, and don't drop the clutch with a bang and burn rubber.

That makes infinitely more difference than what oil you put in, provided it's above a mimimum acceptable standard.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

Rubbish - a nylon stocking was the cure :-)

Not in east London - sawdust or rough string :-)

Dave

Reply to
Magician

OddBall, read what I write - if you can focus that long. See the post on this thread, re: lubrication test labs. Since I worked there I have always used full synthetic. Unlike fools like yourself, those experts know what they are on about. Take expert advice, don't make things up.

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Reply to
Doctor Evil

You worked there, on your own admission, for TWO months - 'nough said....

Reply to
:::Jerry::::

Please use the cheapest mineral oils you can find. Keep it in your engine for 40,000 miles. That will do you fine.

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Reply to
Doctor Evil

Those that will receive no benefit from more expencive synthetic oil will continue to be used with the required spec of mineral oil, those that require the use of (and thus are designed to use) synthetic oils will use synthetic oils.

You carry on chucking good money after bad for no worthwhile gain, I know who is the real mug and it's not me !

Reply to
:::Jerry::::

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