Where to get advice about old timber framed buildings? Longish

[Christian McArdle]

Um, but a quick opinion on a non-listed building is very different from the full structural survey on a grade 2 listed property, which is what you were originally suggesting!

Christian.

[Anna Kettle]

Did you get a written report or simply face to face talk? Reports take time to write (punters expect you to be able to spell, for example) so the cost goes up

The OP is in the London area so he will be charged more than you were charged in Silly Suffolk

Anna

~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England |""""| ~ Lime plaster repairs / ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc |____|

01359 230642

[Andy Dingley]

Opening the Yellow Pages and picking out any old structural engineer is just asking for a complete c*ck-up with a timber frame, let alone an old one. It'd be like asking EDS to build a big IT project - sure, they do a job that covers the same title, but they've never actually seen such a thing done right before.

Talk to a local big framing shop and ask for recommendations, or web search down your own. But there are very few structural engineers with timber frame experience, and you need it.

And they're all dead easy to fix anyway. There's a reason why places like Avoncroft can afford to pull down derelict framed building and re-erect it in a museum - they really are very simple to perform "huge" repairs on, compared to more modern building methods.

[The Natural Philosopher]

I was not suggesting a 'full structural survey' - merely a quick - thats all fine mate, but I don;t like the look of that bit: Could be ten grand to re-do that sodden rotting wall and timberwork to grade II and you won't know till you try' sort of survey.

Whether my timber cottage was listed or not had no implications on the survey cots - only on repair costs.

If it had been listed I would never have bought it, haveinga fair idea of its state.

Which souns FAR worse than the OP's by the way. I had one ceiling that was sagging a foot, main structural timbers cut through for doors, and all pulled out of their soctes as well, old bits of larch and broom poles used to repair rafters, peremannet rising damp, and rotten floor boards, and, as we eventually found, only about 30% of the structural timbers actually sound.

The survey that I had, was to do with a new roof. The engineer basically said it wasn't strong enough to support anythng other than thatch, or the shingles it had.

All advice was 'take it back to sound and start again, or knock it down and start again.

We tried the first, and ended up with the second.

I am certain that a day with a competent engineer will let the OP now whether he has a 2k bill, a 20k bill or a 200k bill on his hands.

That's the sort of knowledge you can get for a couple of hundred.

Ive got frieds in prtecsiley this sort of situation, and they are doing it bit by bit. Tackling the most urgent first, and upgrading and modernising as far as the listed building poeple will let them. Its not so bad really.

It seems to average out at about 10k per room to replace and repair strutural timber work, and replaster to a nice standard.

[The Natural Philosopher]

The first was a face to face, but the second time ws a full writen report - both from Andrew Firebrace lot.

The first let me know waht I was in for: The second was in fact detailed calculations on a particular piece of construction that we wanted to use.

If its so silly why are you here Anna?

Silly is london. Suffolk is sane.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Simple does not mean cheap however. In the final analysis I have known someone completely dismantle, re foundtaon and re-erect (repaired) timbers into a cottage, but it took him 5 years to do it.

Its a labour of lovce, not a commercial proposition.

One assumes also that the engineers have some knowledge of timber structures. Round here most do, because we have a lot of them.

I accept that silly london engineers may not.

What you need is someone who can understand where the main structiral elements are, and identfy if they are in serious danger of collapse.

Sometimes its noi more than 'oh dear, you need a steel cable between there and there, wind it up and pull the ting back into shape, puts sme steel brackets in, and make good the cracks' Or even 'well its moved, but so what? Its all in sound shape. Or ot mnay be 'blimey, all the sole plates have gone and judging by that bit, half the uprights as well. hats mate is going to costyer'

THAT, I suggest is what the OP needs to know. Whether to tackle it at all, or simply auction it off, and if so what sort of budget is going to be required.

IME is down to wehther its 'cosmetic' 'quick fixable' or 'take it (half) to pieces, prop, and repair'

If the latter, expect to spend a lot. More than a complete rebuild perhaps. Maybe 150 a square foot.

[Anna Kettle]

Indeed. London is madness but it is the better place to be if you want to haul in the shekels

Mind you, life in London demands that the shekels be spewed out again nearly as quickly whereas a nice country walk costs only shoe leather

Anna

~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England |""""| ~ Lime plaster repairs / ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc |____|

01359 230642

[Ben Aldred]

Your time setting on the PC are way off. You're showing the first of February already. :-)

[Dr Evil]

morticed/tenoned

Forced air heating incorporating humidity control is ideal for older houses with valuable timbers. The humidity can be set so it is never too dry and achieves the optimum. If extensive rennovation is being carried out, the ductwork can be worked into floors and the likes and long thing grills hidden behind beams, etc.

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[Peter Scott]

I wonder if the CH installed a decade ago has been slowly drying out and shrinking the timbers. This is obviously a lovely and valuable house. I think you should employ a structural engineer to investigate the problem for you. He/she can also be used to supervise any work that you have done. They charge about 3 to 6 % of the contract price, perhaps more for smaller projects.

Hugh Lander's book The House Restorer's Guide is food for thought. It helps newbies (and I was one) not to ruin and devalue fine old houses. Published by David and Charles ISBN 0 7153 8386 8

Good luck. Its worth it to live in a fine house.

Peter Scott

[Stuart Noble]

"> Forced air heating incorporating humidity control is ideal for older houses

I don't think just adding moisture would be enough. Hardwoods air dry pretty quickly in the tropics where humidity can be close to 100%. The chances are that, after 10 years, it's done all the shrinking it's going to do. Once timber has acclimatised to an environment, that's usually the end of the matter. You can use a basic tell-tale system to determine whether timber is still on the move by nailing a piece of thin softwood across a joint so that it will split with the grain if the underlying hardwood moves. Cheap cladding is ideal because it at least starts off virtually bone dry.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Once out of the direct rain, wood settles to about 10-15% moisture content, varying between low (winter with central heating) and high (summer with humid air and no heating).

From green to this level of drybness accounts for about 1% longitudinal shrinkage, and 10% across the grain - more in the direction tangential to the rings, and less across the rings.

This alone causes green oak frames to move considerably in the first

5-10 years of construction.

After that, moving from 'barn' type conditions, to 'central heated' will pull about 2% off the widths again.

If the gaps are more than the 12% or so that might be expected, a structural problem may be happening. However summer to winter variation on e.g. a 12" wide beam may be as much as 4-5mm.

Typical cause of structural problems are roof trusses cut through to form upstairs dooways, and rotting in the timbers themselcves, causing partial collapes and gross movement.