What are Dremels for?

[Andy Hall]

I do. It's called throwaway economics.

Maintaining a spares inventory is an expensive business.

The large retailers are geared up to move product in volume and expect a certain rate of returns over a period of time. This is factored into their deal with their vendor. It happens in many volume distribution industries.

They then look at market conditions and apply what appears to be a very attractive 2-3 year warranty. This is all based on what they believe a court would award a complaining customer according to statute, plus a bit. During the warranty period, they expect a certain return rate and bin returned product up to a certain level. Beyond that level, they invoke contract terms with the vendor. The actual return percentage is a negotiated figure.

No spares provision is made, because it is cost. They calculate that a high percentage of customers after the warranty will throw away the product or not bother to complain, let alone take legal action.

So in choosing a product like this, the questions should be, "Am I prepared to write it off after the warranty period, and am I happy with the quality?" If the answers to those two are yes, and I am happy with the price amortised over the warranty period and the costs of going to get another, then it may be a reasonable buy. If not, then a fully supported product from a major manufacturer would have been a better option.

.andy

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[IMM]

I can understand not carrying spares for "very" cheap power tools. The Screwfix German sounding offering is not cheap at all. Anything above £40 is not cheap at all. One thing is certain the Rotozip is no more and spare parts and bits "will" dry up or be very difficult and expensive to source to the point that most people will throw it away.

[Andy Hall]

Misleading, isn't it?

Well.... Screwfix sell the Bosch Rotocut for £90. I agree that it's not cheap for its function, but at least one can get the spares........

.andy

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[Dave Plowman]

Just how often does the average DIY tool require repair? I'd say it's pretty rare if it's being used for the purpose intended.

[IMM]

I'm sure you can get them for the PP Pro units too.

[Andy Hall]

You've tried?

.andy

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[IMM]

Have you?

[Andy Hall]

Try a Google search using "Performance Power Pro" and "spares", "spare parts" or "service" and very little comes up - certainly nothing suggesting availability of either.

Do a search on

for "service" - nothing.

I just called B&Q's head office. They gave me the number for the Performance Power help line. 0845 300 2577.

I called this number and asked about their service and spares arrangements. The person told me that they make no spares provisioning arrangements whatsoever for their tools, the reason being that they source from approximately 30 manufacturing houses, principally in the far east and it would not be cost effective for them to maintain spares or a service facility.

He did say that they provide a two or a three warranty and that the tool can be returned to the store for a replacement during that period.

I asked what happens after that. There was a silence then the person said that he supposed that I could go to a local repairer. I asked him where the repairer would get the spares from. Another silence. He then admitted that the tool is considered written off after the warranty period.

This precisely correlates with the scenario for own badge products sold by volume retailers that I described earlier. There's nothing wrong with that, but people should not imagine that they are getting an equivalent to a major manufacturer's product because they are not.......

.andy

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[IMM]

Did you check Ryobi? They should have a repair agent.

[Andy Hall]

They *should* but I wonder if they do.

Anyway, it's irrelevant. B&Q is not taking responsibility for service beyond warranty and offers no alternative. That's fine, but they should make people aware of that before they buy the product. Ryobi may well be one of their 30 odd manufacturers. Who knows? By applying a private label, the tool is a Precision Power Pro one and the vendor (B&Q since they are the sole source) should take responsibility for it. Why should the customer have to play guessing games as to who the manufacturer really is. This is a total nonsense.

As I said, the warranty and price points are carefully set so that the customer would most likely not be successful in pursuing a Sale of Goods Act case against them.

I'm quite sure that they are meeting their statutory duties, but this is the second instance in two days where the discussion has been about a Kingfisher company's own brand tools and the discovery that there is not a service facility.

.andy

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[stefek.zaba]

What made you infer it was solo piercing? ;-)

(The actual repair was *much* more boring than your imagination has created, but the details would be such a letdown I'll keep quiet...)

[PoP]

I don't see anything terribly unusual about their practice though.

It would be a bit silly pursuing the likes of B&Q via SoGA if something was out of warranty.

A couple of points that I would make here are:

1) If the product is beyond its warranty period then I would draw a conclusion that maybe it's time to consider it as beyond economic repair. Whether that argument works for other people has no bearing for me - from my perspective EoW = replacement due.

2) In a DIY setting I imagine that most tools would see little use by the punter.

PoP

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[geoff]

Ooh, right between the shoulder blades

[Set Square]

Not true! AIUI, the SoGA requires goods to be of merchantable quality - and to last for a "reasonable" time - where reasonable may well be deemed to be longer than the arbitrary warranty period offered by the manufacturer or supplier.

If you are using tools commercially, it probably makes sense to replace them when they get to the end of the warranty - because of time equating to money and all that. However, tools used for occasional DIY use only will not represent good value for money unless they last *considerably* longer than the warranty period. Being able to get spares and consumables for an extended period is therefore important to the D-I-Y-er.

[Andy Hall]

Not there isn't, and it's widely done with volume distributed, low cost products.

Of their own label PPPro product, I agree, because I am sure the warranty is tied to market analysis and acceptable return rates on faulty product, and anything over these limits charged back to the contract manufacturer.

I do think that the store should be required to make their service policy clear, however.

For this type of product I agree - that is the pragmatic approach. I wonder, though, whether a lot of people, attracted by low prices and long warranties confuse it with quality and don't realise that there is no repair path.

True, but then that depends on the activity level of the DIYer. It also makes a fixed time period warranty even more unreasonable. Generally with tools there are four classes of things that go wrong:

- Manufacturing defects

- Consumable items like brushes

- Items that get a bashing in use and need to be replaced - e.g. guards etc.

- Items that wear

The warranty is only likely to cover one of those - manufacturing defects.

If one could buy spares for or have tools sold on this basis repaired, then the economics would make sense.

It seems much more sensible to me to pay more for a tool that is going to be better quality in the first place in terms of the quality of work that can be achieved, more comfortable to use, likely to have a longer life before needing repair and can be repaired when required.

By the time that return visits to the store are taken into account, I suspect that in most cases, over a few years the total cost of ownership is going to be less as well.

.andy

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[Mary Fisher]

Oh, go on ...

Mary

[PoP]

But you would then be dealing with someone's interpretation of what "reasonable" infers - that's where it gets a bit silly (IMHO).

Obviously a judge might come to the same conclusion as you. But then he might not. Unless you are talking about high value goods then it's most likely not worth more than writing letters to the company concerned - writing cheques to solicitors to represent the case would most likely not be a good idea as you would almost certainly pay for a replacement tool several times over.

Many tools bought in the DIY marketplace these days have a 3 year warranty (not all though). I would have said that 3 years isn't a bad span of time, even for occasional use tools.

PoP

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[PoP]

Can we change this subject before it develops further please? ;)

The reason for asking is due to my having tripped over an Internet web site not very long ago which dealt with piercing to put rings through and all that jazz. Nipple piercing was bad enough, but then it went on to discuss putting a ring through someone's manhood - and my legs crossed rather rapidly at the thought of someone doing that to themselves (or even letting someone else do it to them)!

PoP

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[IMM]

Price/performance again. I have had Bosch drills clap out on me, They are repairable. The cost of repair was just not worth it, in the bin it went. I may as well have bought a 3 yr guarantee PP Pro (but they weren't available then). Now I assess them.

I know people who rent out flats. they buy Miele's, they buy £200 Candy's and the likes, and if out of guarantee they clap out they buy another. They have a washing machine up and running very soon a one year guarantee (2 years with John Lewis) and a satisfied tenant who thinks the landlord is brill by giving them a brand new machine. It all makes sense.

I know one who 9/10 replaces the sink top with new one and a new mixer each time he re-lets. These can be had for about £40-40. It take 1/2 hour to fit using the flexible pipes underneath to replace. A new shiny sink impresses potential tenants.

[IMM]

Maxie. It was?