Water Softeners and Water Conditioners

[Nigel Molesworth]

Which bit of this says you have to notify them?

[Andy Hall]

From near the top of the page in the middle:

"Before work starts on any proposed installation, the installer, owner or occupier must notify Southern Water by submitting a Notification of Proposed Works form. This applies to water system installations or alterations in connection with any of the following:"

In section A:

"- a water treatment unit producing a wastewater discharge or requiring water for regeneration or cleaning"

(AKA a softener)

[Nigel Molesworth]

Bollocks. It means a sewage treatment plant.

[Andy Hall]

It means (as examples) - water softeners and waste disposers

Look at

9e

2, Section f.

13

5

etc.

[Ian_m]

[Brian Sharrock]

big snip

AIUI, dishwaters incorporate a salt-dispensing (and tablets boast of containg salt) water softener; so are such devices 'caught' by these regulations? How does the 'salty' discharge of a dishwasher used two times a day by a large family compare against a water-softener used by a two-person household?

[Andy Hall]

>>>>SNIPthat goes along with the kitchen Part P violation of wiring it into an

Yes, the concern there is about the risk that brine would enter the cold water mains in the event of a burst and negative pressure in the main.

WRC etc. are very keen on the idea of check valves almost everywhere.

Not long ago, I had a conversation with a gentleman there who spoke with quite a high pitched south Wales accent - a bit like Clive Jenkins of union notoriety. He explained to me very excitedly about the necessity of having NR valves on showers, because (he explained confidentially) of

"certain members of our society who need to wash themselves in a particular way, and who use the hose from the shower where the sun don't shine, see......"

(rising to crescendo)

" then drop it in the toilet".

So now we know. Look you.

[Andy Hall]

They *should* be, based on he legislation. Possibly there's an internal check valve, but I've never heard of one.

Less because the amount of water being softened is less.

[Sponix]

A couple of UK Universities (Portsmouth was one, I forget the other) have shown that electronic conditioners *sometimes* have an effect but have been unable to come up with a definitive explaination as to why they work in some applications but not in others.

That's not to say I think people should buy them.

sponix

[Brian Sharrock]

Hmm, "interesting ", what?

I've become interested in the thread because I'm contemplating installing a water softener [this fiscal year]. AIUI, the 'Kinetico' dual cylinder model type only purges a cylinder with about 16 litres of water. Intuitively the dishwater would discharge more than this amount each time it was used. How much water is softened on each dishwasher operation? I purchase about 1Kg of (dishwater) salt per month ... how does this compare with the salt consumption of a softener? --

Brian

[Doctor Drivel]

Cranfield

Which is quite different to the constant foolish allegations of this idiot Parry fella of above: "Electronic - No evidence they work at all". I have one and it works. This Parry idiot has constantly called me a liar...and all the unis too. Amazing. He knows more about it than everyone else then. Only on the Internet.

[Ian_m]

My Wizard dual cylinder uses less than one 25Kg bag of salt per month, thats a family of four, showers each day etc. I paid £60 for 11 25Kg bags delivered last time from a local salt supplier (look in Yellow Pages). It is metered so only recharges after a certain volume (or after a week to prevent stagnating water). It was supplied set to switch and recharge after

600litres but using a testing kit (B&Q 99p) I found it had run out at 600litres, so reduced this slowly over couple of months to its current setting of 320litres before recharge. Water is just going hard now as 310litres usage as I find 100% soft water "too soapy" and hard to get soap off. Allow a "tad" of hard through makes all the difference in getting soap off unfortunately also scaling up the shower screen glass......which was very clear with 100% soft.

My mates timed one that recharges at 2am, for a family of four and uses over

2 bags per month and even then he runs out of soft water as it is rated at 1200litre before charge, but that is only on moderately hard water, his water is very hard and it clearly runs out...should have bought metered...Also in a cupboard under the stairs (near rising main) so he continually forget to check and refill the salt.

I got the wizard (Kinetico and Coleman as similar size) so it would fit under the sink near the rising main making connecting easier (still a compact plumbing nightmare) and not take space in any other cupboard. Our new kitchem, shortly to be fitted, has a 300mm wide unit, specially for the softener.

[Andy Hall]

There are several questions here.

An ion exchange softener has several phases of operation:

- Service

- Brine fill

- Brine

- Brine Rinse

- Backwash

- Fast Rinse

it reasonably well. All but the service are the regeneration phase and the water used is essentially waste - this is the 16 litres you mention. However, during service, the column that has been regenerated will treat several hundred litres.

There are two basic types of softener - timer and meter based - although there are variants. Each of these mechanisms control the point at which a regeneration cycle is triggered. Typically, the timer ones run during the night whereas the metered ones run when needed. The argument is that the metering is a better representation of when regeneration is needed. The better metered softeners have two tanks and you therefore have continuous operation. It's also what allows Kinetico and others to make a small unit even for large use.

Generally the metered softeners have an adjustment that controls the rate of regeneration cycles in relation to volume of softened water used. They may also have an adjustment to control the amount of brine used each cycle, although that is really a function of the capacity of the tanks.

So the parameters to look for are really amount of salt used for a given volume of softened water based on a certain water hardness and (if you care because of metering) the amount of water used for regeneration. These give an indication of efficiency of resins and the softener controls.

To give you a rough idea, in a house of 4 people with fairly heavy use of showers etc., I get through roughly a bag of 25kg of salt every 3-4 weeks. Cost is £5-6, depending on where purchased and number of bags bought.

Dishwashers generally have rather simplified softeners. I haven't put salt in one for years, but IIRC, the regeneration cycle is usually done after the wash and before the rinses. Since it is controlled by the machine's controller, it is usually done on every cycle and may not have the same number of stages as a larger softener. In effect, though it is regenerating to make enough soft water for a complete cycle, which the machine roughly knows, so the controls don't have to be as sophisticated as for a stand alone softener.

[Peter Parry]

Portsmouth is quoted in a number of advertisements (usually saying rather ambiguously that it has been "tested" rather than found to do anything). Last time this subject came up I e-mailed Portsmouth to try to get a copy of the report but they said they could find no record of any such study or test.

The only test I could find was at

tested two magnetic and one electronic device. The conclusion was:-

"The results of this study do not indicate any clear advantage for any of the three devices tested versus a control for the inhibition of mineral scale formation or the corrosion of copper.

The test protocol was designed to simulate the method of production of hot water used in many larger institutional type settings that employ a shell and tube heat exchanger for the production of hot water. The findings do not support the claims of the manufacturers regarding the ability of their respective devices (to) prevent mineral scale formation in hot potable water systems.

The amount of mineral scale formed for the control versus device heat exchange tubes was relatively constant, and proved to be an effective insulator of heat transfer across the tube surface. The scale formed was found to be a type of calcite (calcium carbonate), and had the same crystalline structure for each heat exchange tube. There was no discernible effect on the crystalline structure of the scale formed by any of the tested devices."

The American Water Quality Association set up a Task Force to study these devices which reached the startling conclusion that "there are indications that physical water treatment works, that it does not work..and that it may work sometimes"

At this point they decided to recommend the task force be dissolved!!

report does include references for a lot of other work so is useful in that respect).

The DVGW report

I couldn't locate on their website but anything that turns "monitoring" into "Überwachungsanforderungen" and uses words like Formbeständigkeitsprüfung and Zertifizierungsanforderungen lacks simplicity.

[Peter Parry]

I understand you also see many of them during your regular visits to the hospital.

[Doctor Drivel]

I do see many in hospitals. What wind are you incarcerated in. I'll take you in some descaled Lucozade.

[The Natural Philosopher]

I get through 25kg a month - about £6.50.

Thats on a largeish house that squanders water in a very hard water area.

However I buy about 8 bars of soap a year, and probably as little shampoo...

[Brian Sharrock]

snip

Thanks for your considered reply, and that from the others (Peter Parry and 'the Natural Philosopher(; all who give similar figures.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Thats cos unlike the theorists, we actually use the ruddy things.

[rjs]

Good question!