Waste pipe break in

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wrote:

I was in junior school .. built 1841 with outdoor loos. School hours were cut to 9 to 12 then you ran home with legs crossed.

That is quite amazing. Apparently 1947-8 (before my time) was even worse so that's two really bad ones in 15 years, and nothing vaguely comparable in the last 40 (thankfully)
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wrote:

Those were the days..... I can remember the little third pint bottles of milk having to be thawed on the large iron pipes that went around each classroom and provided the heating.
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wrote:

Spot on. My primary school was a boys-only school and the toilet was in the far corner of the playground, not exactly convenient for a convenience. Halcyon days though.
I guess we must all have been a bit thick back then though. No sats tests. And oh the major inconvenience of schools having a very strict policy about catchment areas - 3.1 miles and you ain't going to this school, chum.
Mind you, in them days we had several dedicated school buses laid on morning and evening.
Why oh why oh why couldn't we leave that marvellous system alone?
PoP
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wrote:

Iron pipes! You were so lucky: we had a round dustbin sized coke stove at the front of the classroom that had a minimal effect beyond the front row. In the winter we wore our coats in class. Looking back it all sounds more like 1863 that 1963. The same 1841 school - here in Greater London, not out in the sticks - only got its gas lights converted to electricity in 1950.
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Andy Hall

In 1963 we had oil heaters in the aisles to supplement the inadequate heating. I was reading about St George's passive solar school in Wallasey. Built in 1961 it never needed the backup heating system on in 1963. The only time it did was in the 1970s when vandals broke the double glass walls.
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Gnube

1980/81 was worse

memories are short, maybe because by 1980 we all had CH and didn't have to huddle around around fire in the house.
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Gnube

It was colder, but "worse" is a subjective statement. For info on just how bad 1947 was (and 1962/63) try this http://www.met-office.gov.uk/education/historic/winter.html.

As far as Met Office stats go, it was colder, but less protracted and the overall snowfall was peanuts compared to '47 and '62/63.
Cheers Clive
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Gnube

You sad it. COLDER In 1981 a block of post war flats near my mothers froze up. The communial stoarge tank burst in the loft causing terrible damage, and tanks all over were bursting. One reason why people have this fear of tanks in lofts. These tanks were not insulated enough. Yet these tanks survived 1947 and 1962/63, but not 1981.
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On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 18:12:32 GMT, "Clive Summerfield"

Thanks for that link Clive, The pic at the top of the page really stirred some memories for me as we were stuck in much deeper stuff (although that was very evocative of how it looked alright!) on the south coast in a westerly direction. Less "in the thick of it" and more "in the deep of it"! ;O)
Take Care, Gnube {too thick for linux}
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On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 18:18:13 +0100, a particular chimpanzee named Tony

I can see how it might be a possibility in an over-long small diameter branch drain, but surely that's not going to lead to a burst pipe? Even so, the water flowing into those branches is from baths, wash-basins or kitchen sinks, and is likely to be warm if not hot. The water flowing from WCs would be moving rapidly and wouldn't be running at anything approaching full-bore. Once in the vertical stack, it's moving even more rapidly. Below-ground, it's insulated from the worst of the temperature.
IANAScientist, but I would have thought for the water to lose so much of its heat energy to freeze while it's in motion would require extreme (Siberian) temperatures.
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button activated flapper valve, nicely dosed with bleach-containing loo blue or similar, and eventually the valve leaks. Only slightly but if the owners are on their skiing hols and we have a cold snap then the trickle of water could well freeze and form an ice plug.
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On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:05:07 +0100, Andrew

That was the case in 1963 alright - I recall that many expanded and cracked the pipe too. I am sure this must represent an extreme overall though, but it did happen, and trying to do a post mortem is difficult with a modern mindset: It was pretty common for valves to leak then, no matter how well maintained they may have been; overflows also saw much more action in those days than I've seen in maybe the last 20 years or more too, it was pretty commonplace to see large icicles hanging from those, not seen anything like that in many years. Biggest I've seen would have to have been in the 6 feet long and maybe 3-4 inches at greatest girth. The memory is not as clear as I'd like but I'll wager I'm not too far off with that. This was North of London in what was then Middlesex, and is now Herts.
Take Care, Gnube {too thick for linux}
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But... some drops of water are likely to remain touching the side of the pipe after a flush; with a metal pipe these will freeze (unless the toilet is flushed very frequently). The question then is whether the next flush will manage to melt the ice, or just attach more drops to it, which freeze.
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I'm only concerned with the vent pipe section of the stack, above the water level. Air can't freeze so I can't see a problem. Even if water flooded up the pipe for a few seconds it would never have time to freeze before crashing down again.
Regards George
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Just eliminate the upper part of the stack and fit either an air admittance valve or HepVOs where applicable.
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AFAIK, only every 4th or 5th house requires a full opened stack. All the rest can have an air admittance valve or HepVO tarps on all waste water appliances.

See the Hepworth URL I gave in the other thread.
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If I use an Air Admittance Valve, I'd better write to the other homeowners and tell them I've bagged one of the available slots for zero exhaust, leaving only 3 or 4 slots remaining and that one of them could be unlucky.
Anyway, I bought an Air Admittance Valve and have made two observations:
1. It's shaped a bit like a mushroom so the cap is larger than the stalk. This means my remaining box section will have to be significantly larger than otherwise. Bad news. I'm talking about a horizontal box section on the floor, here, running across the back of the toilet pan.
2. There is only a relatively small slit in the Air Admittance Valve for air intake. I'm sure this won't allow any greater air flow than my original idea of using 1.5" pipe. Or am I missing a trick?
So I'm back to trying 1.5" or perhaps 2" pipe between near-floor level in the loo, up to ceiling level, then back to 110mm pipe before the vent goes through the roof. I'll test it to see what happens, before hiding everything behind tiles.
I'll know I've failed if I get sucked onto the toilet seat, or the bath plug gets pulled down so hard that the chain breaks and it disappears down the hole.
Regards George
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wrote in message news:<bmre3e$4c6

I don't exactly know the full situation where you are, but it appears the HepVOs would be the better bet rather than a bulky Durgo valve.
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I did what you have in mind with 5 metres of 1" bore, serving loo, bath had HB, 20 years ago. No problem so far.
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writes

But what if everyone fits an air admittance valve or hpvo's without telling everyone else?
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