Victorian house - loft timbers strong enough for loft floor on their own?

[Murmansk]

A friend of mine is looking at buying a two bed terrace house in Wales whic h I suspect was built in about 1890. It?s got a ?loft conversion? in which the loft space has been boarded and plastered, nicely carpeted and th ere?s a Velux window.

It all looks very presentable on the photos I?ve seen on the Estate Agent ?s website but it?s approached via a loft ladder, not a proper staircas e.

My friend is wondering whether they could have a proper staircase fitted.

This set me wondering about the floor of the loft. Mine was built in 1930 a nd has relatively substantial timbers holding up the ceiling of the bedroom s but I don?t think they?d be strong enough to support a full loft conv ersion without some serious insertion of joists ? but back to the house i n question.

I know some Victorian houses are ?over engineered?. How likely is it th at this house?s loft would not need stronger timbers to support the floor of the loft?

I?d go and do some poking around and measuring but it?s 150 miles away!

[Scott M]

If anything Victorian ceiling joists are flimsier rather than stronger,

3x1 or so in houses. I was in the loft of a Victorian Methodist church t'other day with 16" spacing of joists slung over a 12' span between main timbers (60' or more overall), supporting a 1/2" tongue & groove ceiling cladding (ie an 'ell of a weight). Joist size? About 3.5x1.5" at best.

[jgh]

I'm surprised a 1890s terrace wasn't built with an attic and needed to have the loft converted. Every 1890s terraced house I've been in in Sheffield was built with an attic. Was it a typical building technique in Wales to waste so much interior space like that?

JGH

[GMM]

I wouldn't trust them unless thy have been reinforced. Mine are 3 x 1's and at 150 years old, I'm reluctant to go too close to them, certainly not without some support from below. Maybe a floor would spread the load just enough for it to stay up.

[RJH]

Using the roof space does seem to be a 'Northern thing' IME.

[RJH]

Highly unlikely it'd be suitable for a living room floor. The joists in my 1900 terrace are about 3" x 1 1/2" and don't look up to much more than holding up the ceiling. I don't think anything would go crashing through the ceiling, but it wouldn't be 'stiff' enough for a living area.

IME such adaptations involve a new suspended floor.

OTH if it's described as a 'conversion' by the estate agent, it'd be worth asking what it's been converted to, and the basis of any assertion.

[Peter Crosland]

Tell them to look elsewhere. It will not have been authorised and he is unlikely to get approval for it without a lot of extra costs.

[harryagain]

It all looks very presentable on the photos Ive seen on the Estate Agents website but its approached via a loft ladder, not a proper staircase.

My friend is wondering whether they could have a proper staircase fitted.

This set me wondering about the floor of the loft. Mine was built in 1930 and has relatively substantial timbers holding up the ceiling of the bedrooms but I dont think theyd be strong enough to support a full loft conversion without some serious insertion of joists but back to the house in question.

I know some Victorian houses are over engineered. How likely is it that this houses loft would not need stronger timbers to support the floor of the loft?

Id go and do some poking around and measuring but its 150 miles away!

The main factor is if there is any supporting patition walls beneath to support it.

Also if there are any hangers off th epurlins to support it.

Both mke a huge difference.

[Tim Lamb]

3"x2" here. Victorian farm cottages. >

[Dave Liquorice]

The loft ladder access does wave a "lack of planning permission" flag but doesn't rule it out of not being done properly. Ask for copies of plans, permissions, BC certifications etc. If they can't be supplied walk away, as to get it "approved" will probably striping out and starting again. OK they want to put in proper stairs, so major works anyway but...

[mogga]

But why waste money doing it properly only to skimp on access?

[Dave Liquorice]

Maybe there isn't space for proper stairs and the "conversion" was not to make a "habitable space" or before the regs required stairs etc etc. That's why the suporting paper work needs to be sought and examined to find out if the "conversion" is legal and if so what should have been done.

[Old Codger]

Should provide the answers.

There is also:

but that requires downloading the .pdf

[stuart noble]

My Victorian loft has 4" x 2" joists at roughly 14" centres. Strong enough for my sawbench and, on and off over the years, huge stacks of timber and sheet materials. Of course not strong enough for a bedroom though

[Hugo Nebula]

Planning permission would almost certainly not have been required; Building Regulations approval on the other hand would have, and with a pull down ladder, it's virtually guaranteed that it wasn't applied for.

[SteveW]

My parents certainly have an unnofficial loft conversion that was done to provide a computer room. It is accessed via ladders as that allows access from the landing. The only place to put a staircase would have been in one of the bedrooms. OK it's not right, but it's usable for the purpose and it's not meant as living/sleeping space.

Since I bought my own place and then my sister moved out, they've got spare space and now the loft room is only used for storage again - still nicer to access than a dusty old loft.

SteveW

[mfc]

replying to harryagain, mfc wrote: I have a victorian house and i had my loft made into a storage room the rafters are around 3x2 and a around 14 inchs apart however i cross menbered them weth

3x2 than overlayed with a wooden flooring and it is fine etc..the span was 12 foot to the support wall in the middle of the house from the front and rear wall of the house

[harry]

ich I suspect was built in about 1890. It?s got a ?loft con version? in which the loft space has been boarded and plastered, ni cely carpeted and there?s a Velux window.

te Agent?s website but it?s approached via a loft ladder, n ot a proper staircase.

and has relatively substantial timbers holding up the ceiling of the bedro oms but I don?t think they?d be strong enough to support a full loft conversion without some serious insertion of joists ? but back to the house in question.

ikely is it that this house?s loft would not need stronger timbers to support the floor of the loft?

50 miles away!

************************************************ Victorian houses are pretty crap, especially ones intended for the masses. Built as cheaply as possible. May well have damp problems too. Especially in Wales

One way of strengthening in this situation is by means of adding "hangers" from purlin to ceiling. There may be a supporting partition wall beneath al so.

[harry]

Probably no room for a staircase without taking an existing room. Which defeats the object.

[newshound]

My Victorian house had a tiny "maid's room" in the attic, originally with a simple staircase which was removed to fit a bathroom. IIRC the joists were the same size as for the other upstairs rooms.