Using the gas cooker to heat the house...

[S Viemeister]

I would think that the danger is not just the presence of CO, but the absence of oxygen.

[AL_z]

Bernard Peek wrote in news:4c7b8736$0$2539$da0feed9 @news.zen.co.uk:

I totally agree. When I was living in my van at minus 6 degrees, I had some

2.5 tog socks which were just the ticket. I found that half the trick of staying warm was to make sure head, hands and feet were well insulated. I had a fleecy helmet thing, rather like a medieval knight's chainmail head- thingie, but made of nice soft fleece, with drawstring to adjust the sice of the face-hole! It really, really helped.

Al

[Jules Richardson]

in my hands, so they feel the cold more than anything else.

cheers

Jules

[Derek Geldard]

They are also perfectly awful adding large amounts of water to the room, causing black moulds and asthma and hence being responsible for the deterioration and ultimate demolition of a lot of '60s "Piggeries" style housing.

I would guess that a diversity factor is applied to the use of gas cookers. IE. the assumption being made that not all rings / burners are always on at once, and not in continuous use 12, 20, 24 Hrs /day.

Part and parcel of this would be the assumption of the provision of adequate ventilation. If the room air runs out of oxygen the appliance

*will* produce CO2.

Trouble is if adequate air from outside is provided for an open flame appliance the induction of cold air and the removal of heated air make the setup very inefficient and expensive to operate. It was precisely this problem that led to the general adoption of central heating in the 50's and 60's. The cost of primitive heating for one room equalling or exceeding the cost of heating the whole house with CH.

Derek

[The Natural Philosopher]

I think this is very pertinent.

With open flame unflued appliances - and I remember paraffin heaters too..there is a huge risk of massive condensation.

The moulds you are likely to get are lethal for bronchial conditions. If you have adequate ventilation a lot of the benefits of the heat are lost.

Really, the best and cheapest *capital cost* heat is a fan blown electric heater.

IF you can relatively seal a single room fairly tight, and insulate a single room, then a 1-2KW heater should be more than enough to stay warm.

Yes its more expensive than gas or oil but not THAT much more.

If its survival on a minimal budget, then really that is the best bet.

Other things you can do are simple enough: if you have single glazing - or even double - buy second hand GOOD quality curtains with interlining and lining: three layers of fabric in all.

That makes a considerable difference to window losses.

Seal up any old fireplaces you cant afford to run, as they are big losses.

If you have a suspended wooden floor, strip it of carpet, and cover in hardboard to stop any draughts. tape the joints with duct tape. If there are still gaps at skirting level, use decorators caulk to seal those.Then put back some form of underlay and any fitted carpets.

Seal every door with quality draught strip.

If you have solid brick wall, don't stuff around. Any insulation is better than none. I've used cork tiles in kitchens and bathrooms to help reduce heat loss and stop condensation.

Aim to live and sleep in one room. Make sure that room at least is draught free and as insulated as you can get it. Even blankets nailed to battens are a form of wall insulation. Even a bookcase full of books is wall insulation.

There is so much you can do in older properties on a limited budget, once you realise its not a ditzy game of interior decoration: Its sheer survival in a hard winter with f*ck all money in the bank.

And these days there is no shame whatsoever in being in that position: that's the way it is, and the way its going to be for many years to come.

[dennis]

ITYM CO it will produce CO2 normally. CO (carbon monoxide) is very poisonous and will kill you unless you notice the symptoms.

[Andy Champ]

Burn methane (and natural gas is mostly methane) and you will get carbon dioxide (CO2) and water (H2O). [Please read both those 2s as subscripted]. Don't panic about these, they aren't really dangerous in reasonable quantities - you'll get out of breath, and the walls will drip, but that's about it.

Run out of oxygen and you'll die. Before the appliance I think.

Set the appliance up badly and you'll get carbon MONoxide, CO. Depending on your luck this will give you a splitting headache and the world's worst hangover. Or you'll die painlessly in your sleep.

Carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide really are significantly different.

Andy

[AL_z]

The Natural Philosopher wrote in news:i5gmfi$gjc$1 @news.albasani.net:

You could well be right about that. Good post - thank you.

Al

[ARWadsworth]

There is very little difference between new storage heaters and the old ones.

They absorb heat throughout the night and disperse it throughout the daytime and the laws of pyhsics have not changed since the 1970s.

If you are likely to be in a position to install CH in a year or so then any storage heaters that you buy now will be dead money and it might be better to use a fan heater in the room that you are in to keep warm.

[Derek Geldard]

I did.

That was very slack of me. Looking forward to me tea.

Derek

[Owain]

OTOH they can be picked up second hand for a pittance if you can collect them yourself.

(Note to OP: they are heavy, need to be dismantled, and older ones can contain asbestos.)

Owain

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember Jules Richardson saying something like:

I can vouch for the efficacy of those, in general.

[AL_z]

"ARWadsworth" wrote in news:V4Teo.77298$S_1.19774@hurricane:

The laws of pysics haven't changed, but I thought the materials (heat- storing blocks, etc., might have improved a bit, over tha past three decades, along with the internal insulation materials. I'll take your word for it that things haven't improved.

That seems to be the answer then. I must look for a couple of (relatively) hefty fan heaters with integrated thermostats. Mind you, those things do tend top make a racket! perhaps convector heaters would also do the trick but without the noise...

Cheers,

Al

[AL_z]

Owain wrote in news:4c7a8f89-867b-49c4-832c- [e-mail]:

Yes, that's a good point. I can even imagine people being willing to pay for them to be taken away, due to the weight!

Ah, thanks for that. I never thought of that when I destroyed my old one a few years ago!

Al

>

[John MacLeod]

You've had a lot of advice, some of it very relevant.

May I add just a couple of points:

1. You don't need to have a room very warm in order to be comfortable. If you can get the AIR temperature to 50=B0F / 10=B0C you can be very comfortable indeed PROVIDED you are in either a current of warm air or a beam of radiant heat.

1. Fan heaters have their place and I use them extensively in providing frost protection in buildings disused in winter. However, domestic fan heaters used long-term aren't exactly reliable. Models designed for commercial purposes are very much better, though sadly a bit more expensive and difficult to obtain. Don't dismiss the possibility of spot heat from infra-red heaters. Actually, the most effective spot heating is from one of the old-fashioned "heat and light" bulbs once in such common use in bathrooms. They do work and they're not dear. Obviously you've got to be sitting in the direct beam, but they can make life very comfortable at a relatively low air temperature. These proved particularly reliable. This similar might suit your purposes better.

Note the type of element (like a typical cooker element and the style of fan. Much less likely to disintegrate in a few months of almost continuous use.

[js.b1]

Storage heaters are still popular because they are low capital cost and reliable. Not difficult to get 25yrs out of a storage heater.

Early storage heaters had poor insulation and leaked the majority of their heat overnight. Anything after about 1985 used microtherm silica- board or rockwool. They are the "slim" type which is 130-150mm or so vs "250mm". There are still 250-285mm depth storage heaters, but they are the better commercial type (less heat leakage overnight, heat on demand via a thermostat, but cost about =A3800-1400).

Storage heaters work ok when you have a *lot* of insulation and they are sized correctly (not too large or tool small), but they still need a fair bit of adjustment even if an "Automatic" model.

Simple storage heaters just charge overnight and leak heat out during the day. They retain about 50% or so of their heat and are relatively cool by about 7pm.

Fan assisted storage heaters do the same, have slightly better insulation, retain more of their heat and are somewhat warmer by about

7pm.

Commercial fan storage heaters have very high levels of insulation, retain the bulk of their heat and are basically "heat on demand" as long as you charged it the night before. They can have a wall mounted thermostat, Elnur do a 4kW model which is a lot cheaper than the other commercial types (Creda & Dimplex VFM).

Dimplex Duoheat storage heaters take a different approach. They have a smaller than usual storage heater part (such as 2.55kW compared to

3.3kW) and a peak-rate boost heater on the front of 0.4kW which acts to top-up from 2pm to 12pm-2am. They avoid the "roasting overnight, cold the following evening" by saving a bit of money on the night charge and spending a bit more money on the peak rate period - they cost about 20% more than an all-E7 heater but provide better comfort control (it is by a thermistor rather than cruder bimetallic strip & capillary thermostats). Creda Credanet are the same thing. Both have remote programmers if required.

To make Duoheat work you need very high insulation levels because otherwise you end up needing two DUO500n because of the night storage capacity (they are only 2.55kW) which at 1m long can be difficult to fit in.

It is worth having a storage heater in (say) a hall as backup for if the GCH fails, either that or a gas wall heater (which has the benefit of on-demand heating). If you have a living room with no chimney, but an outside wall, look at the various gas wall heaters - I think there are decorative versions with balanced flue. Balanced flue means it draws in combustion air through one duct and exports combustion byproducts through the other duct, they are called "room sealed". Some are available with thermostats, but most are not. I think Robinson Wiley do a cheapish one at about =A3150 online. It still needs fitting, gas piping to it with valve & pressure test point, but they are very good on-demand & backup heaters.

Storage heaters are good for the retired, because they are at home all day.

[Andy Dingley]

They haven't contained asbestos for a very long time ('70s? '80s?) At the same time they removed the asbestos content on safety grounds, the new forms of brock and insulation that came into use were also far more effective at storing energy without loss, then releasing it when you needed it. They were also lighter.

So disregarding any asbestos hazard, you just don't want one of the old sort of storage heater. The post-asbestos ones are far superior. Not IMHO very good, but certainly the better sort of storage heater.

[js.b1]

Sealey EH2000 industrial fan heater (basically). Many variants of that type available.

Mineral Insulated Copper Sheathed (MICS).

How noisy is the fan on that type of heater? Is it louder than a conventional "shoebox on the floor plastic heater"?

[ARWadsworth]

Yes they are often given away.

But they still would need an electrical installation and probably a new CU to supply them.

[AL_z]

"js.b1" wrote in news:6c6b27ae-ba26-4a92-bb7f- [e-mail]:

[trimmed]

Many thanks for the informative response. A lot of useful info there. Yes, I was thinking of siting something in the hallway, as the hallway is kind of central to the house and right at the bottom of the stairs. I am at home most of the day due to long-term disability, so maybe I should hunt around for a used storage heater or two or three.

Al