Using a 16A appliance in a 13A socket?

[Tim Watts]

TheOldFellow wibbled on Wednesday 03 February 2010 10:38

[David Hansen]

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 03:57:56 -0800 (PST) someone who may be Andy Dingley wrote this:-

Still allowed, according to John Whitfield.

I have given an example of where it may be acceptable in another post. Whether those circumstances apply in this case I have no idea.

[David Hansen]

On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 11:52:49 +0000 someone who may be Grimly Curmudgeon wrote this:-

Only if the spur is suitably protected with a 16A circuit breaker.

If it isn't then it doesn't comply with the 17th, or indeed the 16th or IIRC the 15th Edition. No idea about earlier versions.

As space is available in the consumer unit then the best option is to wire it back to there. I might add a socket or two more for flexibility and possible other uses.

[JP Coetzee]

House CU with dedicated 40A RCD to shed --> buried 15 metre 40A armoured cable spur --> CU in the shed with 30A RCD socket ring and

10A RCD lighting ring. Put in on 31st December 2004.

I'll put in a new breaker. What is an "interlocking" socket?

I can't find a suitable downward-pointing, switched socket anywhere. Can anyone help?

Thanks for all your help

[Andy Dingley]

Is that really the case for "domestic premises", meaning the whole address? Or can you use the usual cop-outs about "workshops" and "competent persons"?

(Assuming the kiln isn't in the lounge or the kitchen. I know at least one that is.)

[Andy Dingley]

Replaced? Although the French type E (where the socket has a protruding earth pin) has been _permitted_ for a couple of years now (mostly as a convenience to European foreigners with hybrid E/F plugs), is there any intention to actually replace the Danish Knudsen style? AIUI, they deliberately haven't permitted type F sockets, as there's a problem where older Danish plugs could then be jammed into them. This doesn't sound like they're trying to remove their legacy kit.

[js.b1]

BS1363 are not designed to supply 16A nominal for the duration required by a kiln, it will damage plug, socket and wiring.

If there are spare ways in the workshop CU...

- Fit 16A RCBO (or 16A MCB if RCD supplied)

- Fit an Interlocked 16A BS4343 230V Socket

- Supply it by 2.5mm cable

If there are no spare ways in the workshop CU...

- Fit a larger CU

- Follow the above

Source of Interlocked 16A BS4343 230V Socket...

-

- Gewiss Eurobloc Blue Compact Fixed Interlocked Socket 2P+E IP55 16A

230V

- GW66448

- =A312.54 ex VAT, plus about =A37 carriage, plus VAT

Perfectly ok, cheaper than Mennekes/MK etc which will be =A380-140.

Why Interlocked...

- BS4343 are unshuttered sockets, that means a child can easily poke a nail into a live contact unlike a domestic BS1363 shuttered sockets

- Anyone can unplug under load which will flash (arc) on 32A-63A-125A

- Interlocked means the power can not be turned on without a plug in, and the plug can not be removed without turning the power off

- The downside is the cost, however the Geweiss above is reasonably priced

There are BS4343 Interlocked Sockets which have a DIN rail so you can fit a 16A MCB (or 16A RCBO or 16A MCB & RCD) permitting supply from any other suitable final circuit - but they are physically large and expensive. Supplying a 16A heating device off a ring is less than ideal, although for a workshop without several fixed power tools on the ring it should be ok. Just a DIN rail Interlocked Socket is an expensive solution - cheaper to change a CU enclosure if no space. NOTE most waterproof CU (eg, MK) do not take RCBO - you have to use RCD with MCB, conventional non-waterproof CU (MK Sentry) will take RCBO without problem.

[Tim Watts]

Andy Dingley wibbled on Wednesday 03 February 2010 12:50

I wouldn't like to comment on a strict interpretation - I'm not *that* qualified.

Common sense I think is the order of the day.

It's clear the regs are aimed at the general case of little kiddies and dead-from-the-neck-up people poking things in the sockets.

If that clearly can't be the case[1] or (better IMO) if the sockets are up high enough, I don't think it's likely to be much of a problem as I well imagine you already concluded. Regs aren't mandatory anyway - justifiable exceptions...

[1] I'm suspecting if any little sprogs or the braindead enter your workshop unsupervised/untrained, they'll find more ways to chop themselves to bits than electrocute themselves???

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Then I'd say a kiln would come under this in practice if not in name - since it's likely to be on for long periods.

[Tim Watts]

Tim Watts wibbled on Wednesday 03 February 2010 13:13

But I'll add, as the OP is starting out to install new kit, I would strongly recommend interlocked commando sockets - this is about as bomb proof as it gets...

[David Hansen]

On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 13:13:19 +0000 someone who may be Tim Watts wrote this:-

And rather more likely ways to damage themselves.

[Scrump]

I will put in a new RCD + spur + single socket. What does "interlocked" mean?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

They are certainly available as I've seen them in TV studios, etc. Give TLC a ring - they are good at getting 'specials' in for you. But I'd guess an angled unswitched would bolt onto a vertical switched one if you could source both locally.

[David Hansen]

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 04:33:08 -0800 (PST) someone who may be JP Coetzee wrote this:-

You are unlikely to find one, unless it is also interlocked. If it is easily accessible fit one of them, if not fit a separate switch somewhere suitable and a plain socket.

[David Hansen]

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 05:03:34 -0800 (PST) someone who may be Andy Dingley wrote this:-

French style sockets have been permitted since July 2008 I gather.

There is no intention to rip out Danish style sockets. However, it isn't just for the convenience of foreigners. Danes come back home with appliances bought elsewhere, which are fitted with a French/German style plug. Many don't replace this with a Danish style plug, as they should, but plug in. Obviously much portable equipment is Class II and will come fitted with a 2.5A or 16A plug with no earth connection, in which case there is no problem as either version will safely fit the sockets.

I imagine that eventually the French style socket will become the most common sort and the Danish sort will die out altogether. This won't be for decades though.

[David Hansen]

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 05:35:06 -0800 (PST) someone who may be Scrump wrote this:-

It was explained in another post. To withdraw the plug the supply must be switched off. This prevents someone unplugging it on load. Arcs from 16A equipment are not too bad, but this sort of socket goes up to 125A, which would be much more impressive if not somewhat frightening.

[Scrump]

So if I just fit an RCD and an interlocked socket, I would have to turn the supply off at the RCD to withdraw the plug? It's not enough to turn off the switch on the kiln?

[dennis]

I think the last poster has the wrong sort of interlock in mind.

The idea is to have a switch on the socket such that it can only be on when a plug is in and it has to be off to remove the plug. This is to stop things being poked into live holes.

[JP Coetzee]

So if I just fit an RCD and an interlocked socket, I would have to turn the supply off at the RCD to withdraw the plug? It's not enough to turn off the switch on the kiln?

[js.b1]

Post a picture of your workshop/shed CU (Consumer Unit).

- You need to add a 16A circuit breaker

- You need to run cable to a 16A 230V Interlocked Socket

- You need to fit the 16A 230V Interlocked Socket to the wall

An Interlocked Socket is simply this:

- 16A Round Socket

- Lever or Rotary Switch

The Plug can not be *physically* removed from the Socket unless the Switch is OFF. The Switch can not *physically* be turned ON until a Plug is inserted into the Socket. The Interlock is a mechanical device for safety, you do not need to touch RCD, Circuit Breakers, Fuses, etc.

I notice Discount Electrical do not show a picture of the Interlocked Socket. The compact socket looks like the following (joint the link back up in notepad):

do a non-angled version on the website, just search for 16A 230V Interlocked Socket - I believe there are 2-3 of them (probably a vertical, horizontal and angled compact version). You need a switched 16A socket anyway just in case of any problem and price wise =A312-20 is as good as you are going to get.