Unusual sash windows

[donnysp]

Hi all,

I'm refurbishing the sash windows in my 140 year old flat. I've just discovered that while the inner (lower) sash has the usual cords, weights & pulleys, the outer (upper) sash does not. There are no pulleys and no pockets.

All the wood is (obviously) really old, except for two modern pieces that were in-between the parting bead and the staff bead that were effectively holding the outer sash up (as well as it being painted in.)

Once everything was freed up from the paint, the top sash just pulled out easily. This suggests to me that it is designed to move, rather than just be fixed. If that were the case I would have expected it to be more permanently fixed.

Has anyone come across this kind of set up before? Is the top sash supposed to be fixed? And if so, what would have been the original mechanism for this?

I guess I could just nail, glue or some other way fix, the top sash in position. I would like however to restore the window to its original set up.

Any ideas or advice would be greatly welcomed.

Regards, Duncan

[Stuart Noble]

I would guess the box has been modified at some time. Is there room in there for a second sash weight alongside the first? They're normally only separated by a thin sliver of wood fixed at the top and you should be able to see what's what from the inner pocket.

[Pete Verdon]

It's better if the top one can move too. On hot days you get better cooling by having an opening at both top and bottom of the window, rather than just a single large opening at the bottom.

Pete

[donnysp]

I've had the front lining off so that the inner sash's weight was fully exposed and I can see that there isn't actually space for the outer sash to have a weight. It's just masonry, that is, the wall!

I did a bit more searching on the web and found that there is such a thing as a "single hung" sash window. The top one is not supposed to move. So fair enough, it's going to be fixed. I'd still like to find out how it was fixed when the building was built though!

Cheers, Duncan

[Dave Plowman (News)]

You can get spring devices to balance the weight of the sash rather than using weights - and IIRC they fit from the outside of the frame, replacing the pulleys. So could hopefully be used where the pulleys should be. They don't work quite as well as weights, though, IIRC.

[Stuart Noble]

Just nailed at an angle through the sash face into the box lining I imagine (if it extends that far).

You could always use sash stops to support the upper if you wanted a couple of inches of ventilation, and then a sash lock for the closed position. Obviously not how it was designed, but I wouldn't want to be without top ventilation

[meow2222]

Dave is being extremely kind about these spring horrors. Don't.

NT

[Dave Plowman (News)]

I know - but they may be an option better than a fixed window. I'd never replace weights with them - but if there's no room for weights, might be better than nothing.

[meow2222]

Personally I cant make up my mind which is better, springs or blocks that limit the top sash's travel to a short distance. I suppose springs, just. Budget to replace them all though.

NT

[Rad]

Dear Duncan I have come across such sashes frequently and they are normally fixed and never designed to move. Often it is the side windows of a bay. The usual fixings are through the sash ends projecting downwards in the styles and with one or two cut nails (thin floor brads) into the style. If it is on the ground floor then I would have them put in fixed shut and would also consider a stop strip in the style. If it is on a first floor then the suggestions to have it open a bit would not pose much risk. chris

[donnysp]

Thanks for all the advice guys.

I don't think I could use springs since I live in a listed building (conservation area too.)

I'm going to go for fixing the top sash in place. I've got three windows in a row, so 6 sashes, and when all are open there must be at least 20 square feet of "opening" as it were. Plenty of ventilation!

I think I might use a "joggle or yorn" (see

a decorative way of holding the sash up.

Thanks again, Duncan

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Dunno why not - they don't really show. They have some form of clock spring built into the pulley and a thin metal 'strap' instead of the sash cord - a bit like a steel tape measure in principle. But I'm guessing a bit - I've only ever seen them, not installed them.

[Stuart Noble]

as a decorative way of holding the sash up.

Yorn? Horn? Ideally you should secure them at the top as well. They'll rattle and be draughty otherwise.