unreasonable builder costs - long posting.

We've been having a new Kitchen fitted, but we needed a small amount of building work doing first. Nothing I couldn't have done myself but time constraints made it impractical. The Kitchen Designer introduced us to a builder that she uses regularly. He gave us a quote with just the total amount shown. When he handed it over he tapped me on the arm and said that would be the price for cash, wink. No skin of my nose really, but when I looked at his total I thought it was slightly on the high side, though not outrageously so.

Anyway a few days later we signed the contract for the Kitchen and given that we were spending more there than expected, we asked the builder if there was anyway we could reduce his bill, perhaps by taking some of the jobs back off him. He agreed that there were a few things we could do ourselves and he would reduce his Bill accordingly.

I asked him to give us an updated quotation, unfortunately this has never been forthcoming and furthermore, we were a little naive in allowing him to start the work. We'd already agreed that since there was an 8 week lead time on the Kitchen, that he could come for a day here and there if he ever had an odd day free. He was supposed to come a week before the Kitchen fitters in order to do the bulk of the work. He came and blocked up an old external doorway that wasn't needed anymore. The house is stone built and the job was so good that you can't tell there has ever been a door there except for the stone lintel that's still in place. He's a friendly chap, and he and his team have done good work, but despite asking him several times, we never got the updated quotation. In the end, they turned up a day late to start the bulk of the work, and only worked half a day on a couple of days that week. Then they ended up coming back at the weekend because they were in danger of delaying the Kitchen fitters. They came back and finished a small amount of plastering after the bulk of the kitchen units had been fitted. Not something I was entirely happy about given the cost of the units.

Anyway, he's now finished his work and I still hadn't received an updated quotation despite asking him several times. To give you some idea, his original price was about =A35700. Whenever I asked him how much it would now cost, he just said things like "I'm not sure, I don't have the figures but should be around 2". He said this a couple of times and it concerned me, because he never said 2 of what. 2 apples,=A32 or =A32000. The way he said it, the only thing I could think he meant was =A32000 but he never said and as the job progressed I began to realise he couldn't possibly do the work for only =A32000.

Last week he rang me and finally gave me some figures. Now instead of charging me for the work he has actually done, he's taken his original quote and reduced it by the cost of the work he hasn't done. The problem is that I don't think he's reduced it by anywhere near enough. If I'd known in advance that he would only be reducing it by this amount, I would simply have said go ahead and do the lot then, or I might have said hold fire then while I get a comparative quote.

To give an example, one of the jobs we took back off him was to fit 4 solid oak doors and 4 solid oak door casings. We took this job back because my Dad is a retired joiner and he likes to help us when he can. In the end, I couldn't find solid oak doors at a price I was prepared to pay so I ended up getting some veneered oak doors from B&Q at a cost of =A385 for three of them and =A399 for the fourth. They look good, and are very heavy even though they're not the real thing. The builder saw the doors and I told him where we'd got them from and why. Now when he's worked out what he's reducing his original bill by, he's only allowed =A3100 per door and =A3150 for fitting them all, bearing in mind that his quote was for 'solid oak doors/casings'. My Dad and I spent all day on this job on Saturday and only managed to install 2 doors and 3 frames, no architraves and no door furniture yet.

Halfway through the job, he asked if I could give him =A31000 for the work they'd already completed. I know it's not ideal but I agreed because I felt they'd done enough work to justify that amount. When he rang last week, he asked if he could have another =A31000 at the weekend and we could settle the rest in a week or so.

OK, so here's what I did. I paid him another =A31000 at the weekend, but I also gave him a letter in which I said that the 2nd instalment was a 'good will' gesture while we tried to come to an agreement on his costs. I pointed out that we had never accepted his original quote in any way and had repeatedly asked him for an updated quote. I finished by asking him for a fully costed breakdown of the work that he had done. In addition, while pointing out that his approach was wrong in using his original quote as a starting point, I did give him a list of cost reductions that I thought would have been more realistic in using that approach. And although I haven't told him this yet, I would be happy to settle the matter if he accepted my proposed reductions.

Final point, he's quite a likeable chap, he does reasonably good work, the stonework he did couldn't have been better, but he was slow to get started and he has had to work weekends which shouldn=92t' have been needed. I know ours isn't the only job he's been looking after over the last few weeks. Right up to his phone call, I only considered that he'd been too busy to give me the updated costs, not that he was being deliberately devious. Even now I'm hoping that this is still the case and we can come to a reasonable agreement, but I have to face up to the fact that maybe I've been a little too trusting.

So what do you think? Is there anything else I should be doing now or should I bide my time and see how he reacts? There's no doubt in my mind that I still owe him money, but I'm not prepared to give him any more until we reach an agreement on the final total. I'm also wondering where we each stand from a legal viewpoint.

For any of you who feel the need to reply suggesting how foolish I've been, don't bother. You can't possible be as critical as I have been on myself these last few days.

Thanks

Reply to
Kevin
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Well don't be too critical of yourself, I learnt the hard way that you have to get things in writing. Small-time builders like your guy are notoriously reluctant to put anything in writing, and the best way to deal with that is to collar them, refuse to let the work progress until a clear oral agreement has been reached, take a note of it with the builder at the time and get him to sign what you're agreed alongside your signature. If necessary follow up with a letter to him.

Anyway, that's all lessons learnt. Legally I think the position would be that you had a contract with him the terms of which you varied without being clear exactly what the variation amounted to. The Supply of Goods and Services Act says that in the absence of express agreement you should be charged a "reasonable" sum. That's about as helpful as it gets.

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you and he need to negotiate what is reasonable. I would say he's in a weak position for holding out for a large amount now, because you did ask him several times to give you a figure previously. The nuclear option is that you refuse to pay any more than what you think is right and then let him sue you for the rest in the small claims court. If he's as busy as he says then it sounds unlikely. If he does go to court then for small claims there's a no costs rule, so you wouldn't have to pay for any legal advice he seeks even if you lose. The most you would have to pay is whatever the judge thinks you owe him over and above what you paid. On the basis of what you'ev posted I wouldn't expect a long and careful scrutiny by the judge, who will probably be fairly impatient about squabbles between people who don't put things in writing.

Cheers!

Martin

Reply to
martin_pentreath

If you haven't signed a quotation as being accepted and haven't paid over more than you think the work is worth, the ball is in his court.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

I had a very similar experience with a builder (except that his work wasn't great) and it finally transpired that the reason he didn't like given written quotes was that he couldn't read or write.

He's a lecturer at the local building college now.

If you think you still owe him something, I would stick by your guns and insist he comes up with a proper breakdown, and try to keep it friendly to maximize the chances of an amicable agreement. Maybe you could suggest what you think is a fair price based on what's been done and the quality of the workmanship, and see how he reacts to that.

Reply to
mike

Thanks for the responses, they seem to confirm what I was thinking. Martin, I don't believe I ever had a contract with him, so I don't think it's fair to say we varied that contract. He gave me a quote weeks before we signed the contract for the kitchen and until that point we didn't know for certain we were having anything done at all. We never agreed his original costs, at the time I instructed him on what work to do, I also asked for an updated quote. He had several days to do this before he actually started, but he chose to block up the doorway without providing that quote, I asked him several times during the work for updated costs but they never arrived. I read a summary of the supply of goods and services act and I really don't think his costs are reasonable, so I'm feeling a little more confident. In my mind he's played the game from both ends, costing high in his original quote and then costing low when he's worked out the reductions.

At the moment, he still hasn't been in touch. I think his approach his wrong so I've asked him to provide a detailed breakdown. I also gave him an indication of what I think are more realistic cost reductions for the work he didn't do.

I'd prefer to settle this amicably, I think mistakes were made on both sides, him for not providing the quote and me for not inisting on it before allowing him to start the work. He already has my suggestion on the cost reductions, if he accepts this then all well and good. I also have a slightly higher figure in mind, whereby I will settle simply to close the matter without any more trouble. If necessary I would be prepared to use legal means to resolve it.

Now the only issue is whether I make the next move or wait for him to. The letter asked him for a detailed breakdown of the work, so I'm inclined to wait. On the other hand I don't want him getting any more upset about it and find he dig's his heels in.

Thanks again for the replies. Just putting it all in writing has helped me sort my head out.

Reply to
Kevin

IANAL but I imagine there is some kind of implied contract/agreement in place as you allowed him into your house to brick up the doorway.

Reply to
F

OK, not sure. At the same time I let him in, I also asked for an updated quote. He still hasn't been in touch which is a little surprising because I accept I still owe him some money, just not agreed how much. Every time I've thought about ringing him, something else seems to have cropped up.

Reply to
Kevin

If you've a builder that relies on word-of-mouth then there is an incentive for them to finish each job on an amicable standing, do what they said they would for the price they quoted, tidy up after themselves, etc. This chap probably isn't particularly bothered, because he got your business through the kitchen company.

If you look at it from the builder's point of view, sometimes it's easier just to forget about the final installment if the hassle involved in sorting out the snagging problems (or invoicing properly as in your case) is more than the outstanding money. An experienced builder is very good at sizing up a customer and trying to figure out whether they will pay promptly or quibble and this may well be loaded into what he quoted.

Once you have this kind of cynical viewpoint, you start looking around and noticing gable ends of houses which don't quite match when the bricklayer changed at the end of a job.

You might find it interesting to try and estimate the materials used on your job and the day rate for everyone who was on site - generally somewhere between 100-200 quid per day.

Reply to
Jim

For those still interested, I rang the builder yesterday and he came back with a handwritten breakdown of his actual costs. The biggest cost by far is for the electrical work that he sub- contracted, it's amounted to half the cost of the work. Now I haven't seen the invoice for the electrical work, so I've only got his say-so that it's right, and I don't think it was worth it, but I'm not inclined to continue the argument.

His overall bill now is a little cheaper than his original suggestion and a little dearer than my suggestion, we've met roughly half-way between. Anyway I've decided to settle the matter and pay what he's now asking for. He has apologised over the confusion and did seem genuinely upset by the situation. I'm even beginning to feel a little guilty because if he is being honest about the electrical work, then he can't have made much money for himself on our job, and he has offered to come back and sort out a couple of snags for us.

I've learned a valuable (slightly expensive) lesson, and I won't employ anyone else without being absolutely certain up-front what I'm going to be paying and a rough idea of how those costs break down. I might even consider using him again in the future (if he'll work for me), because as I've said all along, I can't fault the quality of his work.

Thanks to everyone who offered their advise/opinion.

Reply to
Kevin

In article , Kevin scribeth thus

Perhaps he might learn a bit too about quotes and estimates, but then again there are good and sometimes very good tradesmen out there who know sod all about running a business .. most fortunately have the missus who often looks after that side who from what I've seen of it works rather well;))..

Reply to
tony sayer

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