UFH Running Costs

Have any of you estimated and/or measured the running costs of under-floor heating in a way which enables you to suggest a methodology to use?

We are converting a built-in garage into a kitchen, and are considering using UFH - either wet or electric.

On the face of it, electric would be a lot more expensive to run, since the price of on-peak electricity is still three times that of gas. However, you then have to consider efficiency. With electricity, all the consumed energy ends up where you want it. With gas, my boiler is at best 75% efficient and I suspect that it's considerably less efficient than that when running at a low output - like when the *only* thing it's heating is the kitchen floor. [Perceived wisdom seems to suggest that UFH needs to be on either 24 x 7 or, at least, for longer than the radiators in order to allow for the thermal inertia]. Even so, it seems likely that more than 1/3 of the heat generated by burning gas would end up in the floor - so it should *still* be cheaper to run than an electric system.

What effect does UFH have on heatloss calculations? On the face of it, the delta-T between the floor and the soil below is roughly twice as great with UFH as it is with a 'conventional' heating system - so presumably the losses through the floor (everthing else being equal) are roughly doubled, so that the overall room heatloss is a bit higher. I say "a bit" because the loss through the insulated floor is - according to my calculations - only about

6% of the total, so doubling it would add another 6%. Is this a reasonable assumption?

Whilst it's easy enough to calculate the steady state heatloss under defined conditions (e.g. ambient temp of -3 degC), estimating the total annual energy requirement is not so straight-forward. I will describe the rationale which I have followed thus far, and would welcome any constructive comments as to its reasonableness.

I use gas for CH in cold weather, and for HW throughout the year, but not for cooking. I know how much gas I use in a year and how much in the summer months when just used for HW. I can thus estimate the annual use for HW and deduct it from the total in order to calculate the annual use for heating. If I assume a figure for boiler efficiency, I can calculate the kWh/annum which actually gets to the radiators. If I divide that by the house heatloss in kW under the defined conditions, I can calculate the *effective* number of hours per year for which the system is running at its rated capacity. [Of course, in reality, it's running for much longer than this - at a lower capacity for most of the time - but this gives a basis for comparison].

Extrapolating this for the 'new' room, if I work out the room heatloss under the same defined conditions and multiply it by the effective hours figure obtained above, I get a figure for the likely annual heat input to the room. For an electric system, this is the number of kWh required and for a wet system the figure needs to be divided by the boiler efficiency to work out the number of kWh of gas consumed. In both cases, the figures are fairly horrific! Are there any fundamental flaws with this approach?

Reply to
Roger Mills
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Look at a Myson kickspace heater for a kitchen.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

========================================= And the 12V model for safety in the bathroom:

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Reply to
Cicero

Roger Mills coughed up some electrons that declared:

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(Done in OpenOfficeCalc - probably OK in Excel)

Is the best estimate I could manage, with data on the U-Value of concrete on earth from

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wanted to see how much worse (and how much cost of gas I'd waste) by having wet UFH on a bit of insulation vs normal heating and no insulation which is how the house is now.

You'll need to change B6 if your permiter/area value is different - use the celotex calculator set to 12mm floor celotex and you'll see that B6 has a back-calculation to remove the U-Value component of the celotex leaving the floor.

It's rough, undocumented and the Ground Temp is over a range because I don;t know what to assume - so I thought I'd study the likely range and see how far the heat losses ranges.

It might even be all wrong, but I'd be interested if anyone can fix this.

Cheers

Tim

Reply to
Tim S

Dont use electric fo serious heating.

Correct. Plus electricity costs more. heta pumps are a different matter, but thats a wet system.

I think the breakeven with oil is at around the 25p a liter level.

Its a bit hard to say. I cant actually offer real figures, but this last spell of cold I simply let mine run 24x7 and I noticed that the floor never got as hot as it did when I was running it timed. Since it never had the '4 hour burn' to get it warm. My gut feeling is I used LESS oil on 24x7 for that reason. Cooler floor=less heatloss.

No, but it seems long winded. Average UK temps are between 9C (Scotland) and 11C (south west) IIRC. Just take the heatloss and that level on a

24x7 basis for your sort of 18C type internals.

I can tell you one ting tho, UFH done proper is no less efficient than any other system, although an in screed system with a large mass is something iu cannot modulate quickly, BUT it can work at more efficient boiler outlet temps.

If you are talking conservatories though, forget it: the floor output simply isn't enough to cope with all the glass heatloss.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

Interesting post I have installed wet UFH and as you state the thermal mass and slow heat up is a perceived problem but only by SWIMBO! If I were you I would use a buffer to ensure the boiler did not keep switching on and off and large diameter pipes at close centres to speed up heating If it is not too late I would put as much inuslation as I could underneath to minimse heat loss to the soil under and keep the output temp as low as practicable. I use a heat pump but if you are on gas (LPG or natural?) you are at risk in the long term and it would be sensible to have a further coil in your buffer for a wood burner! That is what I have done (in fact my buffer is in direct line with the Heat Pump and has two other sources going into it - a primary flow and return from a boiler (due to be backburning wood but currently LPG) and DC and AC immersions one for true emergencies when there is only elec and the heat pump is off (anti frost) and one for a wind generator. Chris

Reply to
mail

Presumably by "buffer" you mean a heat store with a heat exchanger inside? Any idea what capacity would be required to support 20M^2 of UFH?

Reply to
Roger Mills

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