TV distribution system project

Yes, I didn't bother to describe the Seiko Spring Drive because it's absurdly expensive and exceedingly rare. And no, it's not because of the cost of the jewelled movement, it's because Seiko are deliberately targetting it at the top end collector market.

I was mates with the Service Manager of Seiko in the UK, and he showed me an example of the very first Spring Drives for sale in the UK. I asked if I could buy one, but at that time Seiko were actually choosing their customers and I wasn't of sufficient stature! Different story now, of course.

The first ones were hand wound, so there was no particularly limit on the energy available to run the watch. This makes it *much* easier to implement the technology. You can just fit a longer and stronger mainspring and make the owner work a little harder each morning.

The biggest and most impressive breakthrough came in making an "automatic" version, which used the wearer's wrist movements to wind the mainspring. Much greater economy of power is required, but it was achieved and resulted in a wonderful watch.

Johny, you are doing it again! Sounding authoritative when you know almost nothing of the subject.

You've just described a normal analogue quartz watch, except one which steps somewhat faster than 1Hz (fast enough to be smooth and continuous)*.

This isn't related in any way to Seiko's breakthrough technology, so is in no way a "cheaper variation". The magnificent breakthrough was using a quartz resonator to control a *mechanically powered* gear train, by not only powering the circuit from the train it is controlling, but also regulating said trains speed. This dual function was brilliant.

The reason faster-than-one-second stepping hasn't found its way into quartz analogue watches (I mean commonly available ones) so far is to do with battery life. The stepper motor consumes most of the power, and the less often it steps, the longer the battery will last. That's why quartz analogue watches with no seconds hand will often step only every 15, 20 or 30 seconds. Quite often ladies watches are like this: quartz analogue with no second hand. Borrow one from your wife, take it to a quiet room, and listen carefully - you will almost certainly find it does two to four ticks per minute; no more.

Now that high-speed (virtually continuous)* quartz clock movements are available, I don't suppose it will be long before someone launches a watch equivalent. I'll be the first in the queue outside Argos to buy one, as long as it isn't silly money, of course. I would have thought that modern, low power movements/motors combined (perhaps) with a lithium battery would make it entirely feasible.

Or none. Steel-on-plastic and plastic-on-plastic bearings are very common (almost universal) in lower cost quartz watches. Despite jewels still being used in higher quality quartz movements, the case for them is really quite questionable (apart from marketing reasons, obviously). The train in a quartz analogue clock is under virtually zero torque, so wear is essentially non-existent. In fact, I've never found a single quartz watch with wear at the pivot or hole.

Jewels allow for a lower level of friction than the alternatives I mentioned, which is why they still find their way into mid-range and posh quartz watches. But basically there is no mechanical requirement for them.

This is very different from mechanical watches, of course, where the train is under a high torque and wear is common.

*Recall that synchronous motors and stepper motors are variants of the same theme. Operate a stepper motor quickly enough and its inertia ensures that it doesn't stop between steps, thus working like a synchronous motor.
Reply to
Steve Thackery
Loading thread data ...

Yep, I used it to connect to my crystal set when I were a lad..

Reply to
Mark Carver

Of that, I don't think anyone would have thought otherwise.

Yes, eventually any "Luxury Technology" will trickle down to the great unwashed as the manufacturer sucks the well dry of the early well heeled adopters they'd initially targetted.

I've no doubt the use of Nitinol for the mainspring came to the rescue in allowing the higher energy storage capacity required to support the extra parasitic load from the micropower electronics for a respectable amount of time (48 hour and longer reserve times).

I agree totally.

Just what part of the phrase "could be (and I believe is)" makes me sound 'authorative'?

Now it is you who is misinterpreting what I wrote.

I'm glad you're suitably impressed. It does show that you have sufficient understanding to properly appreciate Yoshikazu Akahane's 28 years' worth of development work that went into this project.

All I was suggesting was that this technique could be readily adapted to work the other way around using electric power from a watch battery to drive the mechanical movement from the opposite end of the gear train, eliminating the need for storing the power in a mainspring (no matter how it was wound - manually or by an 'autowind' mechanism).

Your argument seems to be specious. It's true that you can reduce the energy consumption by _eliminating_ the seconds sweep hand (one less bit of mechanical drag in the system to contend with. The need for an inefficient stepper motor to step sixty times a minute also disappears allowing a more economical stepping speed to be employed to drive the minutes hand (as you say anywhere from 4 to 2 steps per minute).

What you seem to be overlooking is the higher efficiency of a micro DC brushless motor driving a stepless seconds sweep hand versus an 'ersatz' attempt at simulating this effect by driving a stepper motor at 5 to 10 pulses a second.

I'd expect the use of electrodynamic braking will be abandoned in favour of a simpler use of a micro syncronous motor which will lock to the 'supply frequency' generated by the quartz locked ac source.

Although that would be a significant change of detail, it nevertheless represents the "Spring Drive" principle in reverse, essentially retaining its hallmark features. The difference simply being the choice of power source.

Yes, there would certainly be a market for such watches (and no need for "virtually Continuous" movements either - I wouldn't want one based on anything other than that exemplified by the Spring Drive watch ("Electro Drive", perhaps?))

When the drive is applied by a stepper or micro DC brushless motor, the bearing loadings, as you pointed out are light enough to be served by less exotic materials. I suppose it's more a case of whether you're selling a product designed to survive as a working heirloom or not.

Other than to improve durability of the product.

Quite. The case for using 30 or more jewels in the basic models of the Spring Drive watch is exactly the same as for its mechanical predecessors that relied on a balance wheel escapement for regulation.

Amazing! You've just argued against the case you were making for not pulsing a stepper motor faster than once a second (or 4 times a minute).

Reply to
Johny B Good

Good old Wikipedia, eh? ;-)

But nothing needs adapting! What you've just described is EXACTLY how quartz analogue watches already work, and have done for decades, apart from a minor difference in the motor. I've already explained that the reason we haven't yet seen that higher-speed motor is simply a matter of battery life, not technology. There is nothing remotely innovative about what you are describing.

Wonderful! You do realise, I hope, that a brushless DC motor uses electronics to generate a rotating magnetic field, exactly as a stepper motor does? The only difference is that most watch stepper motors are only two pole, whereas brushless DC motors have more. But the fundamental principle is the same.

You just described, exactly, a quartz watch stepper motor, except a synchronous motor normally has more poles. (In fairness there are several types of synchronous motor, but all of this is exceedingly old hat and the technology has been available for decades.)

No it wouldn't - that's bollocks! What you've described is exactly what is used in these recent smooth-running quartz clock movements, and that is a minor variation of the existing technology. Also, for a few decades now some quartz mantel clocks and most quartz car clocks have used synchronous / high-speed-stepper (take your choice) motors to provide a smooth, continuous drive. The higher power consumption is why they were OK in cars but not on your wall.

You keep describing technology that already exists whilst suggesting you have just thought of it, and claiming it is somehow a derivative of the Spring Drive. It isn't!! What makes the Spring Drive unique and innovative is that the spring-driven rotor is BOTH a generator for the quartz circuit, AND is controlled by the self-same circuit.

Once you remove the generator part, you've ended up with a simple synchronous motor (which in itself is just a high speed stepper motor).

Why do you feel the need to repeat what I've just said, but in different words?

Hmmm.... I detect Johny's "must have the last word", here!

I'm saying that it uses more energy to drive a gear train faster, because of the higher friction, which is why - when a second hand is not required, the train is simplified and driven more slowly, thus reducing battery consumption.

All else being equal, a higher speed rotor will require more energy to drive it and a longer gear train, with more friction. Having said that, they've done it with clocks now, so watches can't be far behind.

But to suggest that it is somehow novel is simply wrong, and to suggest that it has any of the Spring Drive's "hallmark" features is profoundly wrong! Spring Drive has only one hallmark feature: the use of the rotor as BOTH a generator AND a speed controller at the same time. Genius. Take either of those functions away and you have absolutely nothing new.

Anyway, I fear I may be wasting my time explaining this. Johny - the last word is yours! :-)

Reply to
Steve Thackery

They did indeed.

Bill

Reply to
Bill Wright

Indeed! Little did I think my interest in "Memory Metal" a year or two back would land up serving me so well in a seemingly unrelated subject as this (but that's the nature of technology and science for you).

You could argue the same with regard to Yoshikazu Akahane's work being essentially just an innovative modification of an existing gear train drive used by the first of the analogue readout quartz watch mechanisms wherein he turned the concept on its head by using mechanically stored power to drive a generator that could provide the electrica power required to allow a quartz crystal oscillator to precisely regulate the speed of the whole mechanism.

The point of mentioning the Spring Glide watch at all was to provide a classy example of a seconds sweep hand that moved at a steady speed with all the accuracy of a quartz crystal based clock as opposed to the less accurate Bulova tuning fork example mentioned upthread.

You're forgetting that the stepper motor is designed to capitalise on the cogging effect (using a matching number of rotor and field poles) whereas the DC brushless motor is designed to reduce this effect (the number of poles between the rotor and the field being deliberately mismatched).

It seems I made the mistake of specifically referencing the design of the Spring Glide mechanism (which is essentially a conventional gear train driven analogue display mechanism) as opposed to the same mechanism that's been used for quartz regulated analogue display watches and clocks over the last 3 or 4 decades.

Did you mean to say wall? I suspect you meant wrist.

No, what just occurred to me was the idea of using the distinguishing feature of the Glide Drive motor principle to obtain the same pleasing effect of steady continuous movement of the seconds hand in an otherwise conventional quartz stabilised analogue display watch or clock.

To provide additional context to the discussion?

It's not so much the friction itself as the fact that you've removed a high speed stage where the similar level of friction (representing a good 98% of the friction of the whole gear train) will result in higher power consumption which results in a faster depletion of the energy store (watch battery in this case).

The energy consumption required to drive a seconds hand will be some sixty one and a bit times greater but that's just the inevitable cost of having the luxury of being able to read the time to a 1 second resolution on an analogue display.

It's worth bearing in mind that the bulk of the energy losses originate in the first driven gear wheel that drives (in this case) the seconds sweep hand. The rest of the gear train driving the minutes and hours hands (and any extra optional 'complications' driving the the date display) will only increase the torque loading by less than

2%. It's the 60 times faster speed of a seconds hand that's the real killer demand on the energy source used to power the clock or watch.

Since analogue display quartz watches with a sweep seconds hand are a fact of life, the battery consumption issue has already been addressed. Using a speed regulated DC brushless micromotor instead of the conventional one per second stepper motor shouldn't compromise battery life. My feeling is that it should, if anything, enhance it by some small amount.

Other than the core idea of a constant speed DC brushless quartz controlled micro motor to replace the conventional stepper motor typically used to cause the seconds hand to jump in one second increments.

Only if you say so (and I respond to your post). :-)

Reply to
Johny B Good

My favourite is the the proper Swiss Railway Clock, a sweep second hand that makes a revolution in ~58 seconds, then pauses. Starts again together with the minute hand jumping to the next point.

Reply to
djc

Sounds interesting. I liked the one I saw at a power station museum in Bournemouth. A pendulum-driven clock with a large second hand mounted concentric to a synchronous motor driven disc. Presumably, the generator would be carefully adjusted to keep the two lined up, so the mains frequency was manually locked to the pendulum.

Cheers,

Colin.

Reply to
Colin Stamp

A video here or

The designer copies maketed by Mondaine are not the real thing, they copy the design of the hands and face but not the action.

Reply to
djc

I'm guessing the minute/hour hands are synced to a remote master clock but the second hand free runs, deliberately a bit fast so that it can be gated by the next minute pulse?

Cheers,

Colin.

Reply to
Colin Stamp

Back in the late 60s, I spent some time at Eggborough power station. There was an interesting clock on the wall of the control room. It clearly had two inputs - one was from the station mains frequency which was driving its second hand (can't remember if there were actually any others) forward, whilst it was driven backwards by the station instrumentation feed, from a pendulum clock which produced pulses ever second (and minute, quarter hour etc for various printing recorders).

So the hand moved around the dial, twitching back every second, generally hovered around 12 o'clock, but did move around a little over time.

Chris

Reply to
Chris J Dixon

Going back many years to when TV had mains locked frame rate, it was said NI looked at a UK transmitter and got the hum bars stationary before connecting to the mainland.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

The hole wasn't to allow an earth wire to escape (although that was indeed a use!) but an inspection hole for the purpose of making the connection of an earth conductor visible with the cover in place (as required by BS 1363:1947 clause 15 - now rescinded.)

In later years GEC and Nettle (later Delta) 13a mains plugs had a hole in the underside so you could see the fuse rating without opening it up.

Reply to
Doctor D

How would the hole enable you see that the earth conductor is connected to anything? It could have been snipped off at the back.

Reply to
Max Demian

Since clause 15 has been rescinded, I'm guessing you're not the first to "Spot The Flaw".

Reply to
Johny B Good

HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.