Trianco 15/19 oil boiler starts fine then just goes to burner lock out after 3 1/4 mins running.

Any ideas? Bentone electro oil Inter10 pl10/4 pump/burner assembly This symptom doesn't seem to be listed anywhere. (commonly seems to be cutting out within 30 secs or so). The tank filter has not been changed in 18 years(!!) but when fitting a new plastic tank 5 years back paper filter looked perfectly clean and no sediment in botttom of glass bowl so I left as was.( probably rinsed it in fuel) Photocell is clean, fuel is flowing ( not sure if fast enough, firing rate stated as 40ml/minute and would certainly seem to easily match that) . Some sediment appeared in the first jamjar of oil after disconnecting flexihose at boiler. 2nd jamjar seems to be clear. I assume this may have been debris from the hose perhaps although it was a browny colour and looked like tiny bits of chipboard !! No evidence of water or air in these samples. My user notes for the boiler state that there is an internal filter for the pump but I have no idea where this might be. I guess I should just change the tank paper filter but access is very difficult in the new tanks position so if anyone can help in the pump filters location and what to undo to look at the oil pump itself I'd be very grateful, thanks PS The nozzle is original I think and would like to replace. How do I establish which danfoss series ( ie H,EH, S,ES orB) nozzle I need, I found the size specification somewhere but not to hand at the moment.

Reply to
martin_sv
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Good start.

The usual pump is a Danfoss but over the last five years or so there have been some model changes. Current version is BFP21L3. Whatever its never a wise procedure to open up the pump as invariably they don't go back together right. (Unless you are astoundingly lucky)

The easy way is to take a nylon pan scourer to the flats of the nut of the nozzle. The details are embossed into them and they can be read when cleaned off. In the absence of other data I suggest an 80 degree H. If you have a Danfoss MSLA type pump it will be a distinct probability given the symptoms. This is obsolete and the BFP version is its current replacement. You WILL need a pressure gauge to set it up afterwards and you will need an analyser kit to set up a clean burn. I suggest you may need a pro who has the right kit to do this job properly, if you cannot find and independant one locally ask your fuel supplier if they can help. The photocell may be clean but it could have degraded and may not be reliably registering the flame, also a possibility is a problem with the sequence control box.

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Reply to
John

Hi John, I noticed you seem to be the resident expert on oil boiler issues! :-) Your name was on many of the posts I found whilst searching for information prior to my post. Regarding pressure check and gas analysis post nozzle replacement, is this only if I fit a different spec nozzle? If I fit an identical spec replacement shouldn't the pressure and air valve settings be the same?.I feel that the settings have remained the same ever since original commisioning on installation of this boiler. I used a maintenance chap for an annual call for first

3 or 4 years and not once did I recall see him making any measurements. As all that happened was a vacumming out and visual inspection of the burner I decided to carry out the cleaning task myself ever since. Its been totally reliable unitl now. ( Fuel economy has remained remarkably consistant over all 19 years so I've assumed the settings could not have altered to much away from the ideal if at all) Thanks for your sugestions re photocell and control box I'm going to start by replacing the hose, external filter and nozzle and would appreciate your reponse to leaving the settings alone if I use an identical nozzle.
Reply to
martin_sv

The tests confirm that the combustion conditions are and remain correct. These are affected by the factors you mention but also to a greater or lesser degree by build up of dirt on the fan blades, dust deposits inside the volute casing and air ports, changes to the flue "suction" for conventional flue boilers etc. Without testing you cannot have the confidence that things are the same. Oil pumps do degrade and lose delivery pressure or it becomes unstable which causes poor atomisation of the fuel through the nozzle. Incidentally nozzles do wear or erode and ideally should be replaced at least every couple of years.

I feel that the settings

He "SHOULD" have done and recorded the combustion results on the job report/history record card which should be kept with the boiler.

The hose is rubber under the braid and replacement is advised at least every

3 to 5 years as it suffers embrittlement. BTW have you a firestop valve which has shut but not absolutely tight hence allowing the oil pump to fill but not sufficient to keep the burner running passes on startup. Also worth thinking about is some filters are mounted "wrong way round" in the flow so the muck they stop is inside the cartidge not visible on the outside - is this the case with yours perhaps? There is usually an arrow on the body.

Clean the fan and airways but if you ensure the damper settings etc are kept as is then you may get away with it.

It concerns me that service men are running around without analysers/Fyrite kits. Their competence is immediately called into question.

Reply to
John

Martin sounds like your in good hands with John.

My concern was any difference in the way the burner systems work in the UK in comparision to ours here in the USA, especialy after seeing how the burner units were built.

John, do you think the braided hose could collapse if it was too old?, Thus, starving the burner.

Reply to
sky

sky wrote:

An update on progress, replaced nozzle,tank filter and hose to pump. Problem!! ----Flow rate out of open hose was now just a dribble. it turned out there was masses more of the brown debris in the pipe run from tank to boiler. ( I wonder if this was the paper filter disintegrating although not visible in the bowl).As it was there before not sure why the flow rate went right down. I think flow rate is now back to as before ( blew through from disconnected pipe at tank end and then mucho jamjars of purging. (got debris to flow by removing hose at boiler which allowed for lower drain off point ). After seeing all this crud I felt sure the poump strainer must have plenty in it. I took the plunge and undid the 2 allenbolts and removed the pump assembly. (MSLAO32) The circular strainer gauze was visible and was covered in crud. Cleaned up and reassembled. Did not see any gasket at time of removal, just a large o ring which remained in place on the remaining part of the pump body. Connected up and oh dear, leaking badly from pump, not sure exaclty where from. I recieved a number of rubber gaskets with my paper filter but felt the originals were fine and bedded down nicely.I also found one gasket which MIGHT have dropped of the pump body at the time of removal approx 6cms in diameter, hard to see where this might fit though. So my Q is what seals the pump where it comes apart? Should there be a removable gasket or the O ring? TIA PS Trianco tech told me my nozzle would be a 0.6 80EH , it turned out to be an 0.6 80H. trianco tech said the direct replacment would not be an issue and the EH was a "tighter tolerance" component. If thats the case how come they still supply plain H's then? Just confused ( and a bit skeptical about tech support comments)

Reply to
martin_sv

removal, just a large o ring which remained in place on the remaining part of the pump body.Connected up and oh dear, leaking badly from pump, not sure exaclty where from.

Reply to
sky

Martin are you on holiday?........If not your doing a heck of a job workin both ends of this.....Sky

Reply to
sky

On permanent "holiday" I guess. I'm a downsizer and as my work dried up I stopped about 4 years back, hence thats why I have timeand a finacila incentive to attempt anything. I have a scientific background which can help and I take the view that if another human being can do a job then I sure as hell ought to have a try. "Its not all rocket science" as the saying goes. The web is an amazing resource of course and I'm sure many tasks just would not have been practical without access to manufacturers data and of course the helpful pool of usenet users. Your right on the 5 hour difference as you're on the East coast I believe. I certainly haven't been up all night! I do find that the times of posting that appear via usenet in outlook express or via google groups often seems inconsistent, sometimes showing the time in the posters location and others converted to local time, no big deal and likely related to some setting somewhere or other. I've reassembled and retightened the allen bolts, I was being a little careful in not wanting to strip the casing threads. Fingers crossed and I'll let you know the outcome. Cheers martin

Reply to
martin_sv

The typical failure is fuel leakage "out" of the hose due to positive internal pressure. However with a suction lift situation it is sometimes found that the cracked rubber allows air to leak "in" to the tube. This upsets the pump delivery pressure and causes poor combustion. The rubber becomes hard and brittle thus collapse is not typical, however there are always odd situations where other things can happen.

Reply to
John

The MSLA is old and I can't recall exactly offhand but I think it was simply an o-ring. The failure to seal again is typical hence my initial comment about opening the pump not being advised

The difference is mostly marketing hype. Trianco seem to have a ready supply of EHs but the distribution suppliers never seem to stock both EH and H options. H is the normal stock. Don't worry about it the H will be fine.

Reply to
John

Thanks John, My experience has been strictly gravity fed residential, where the only pressure is atmospheric.

Reply to
sky

martin.........hope everything is okay

Reply to
sky

Thanks again to John, Sky and any other contributors. As yesterday was the first non wet day for about a fortnight I took a break (!) and worked on my car ( replacing brake lines for MOT. (govt test). Just come back to report progress. I seem to have stopped the pump leak, Hurray! Removed reseated and retightened (more). However burner not firing at all (remember it did fine before my changes). Q? I've bled through the bleed screw on the pump which is also the pressure check take off point. Small amount of air cleared but I'm puzzled at what seems an innapropriate flow rate.I've fitted a plastic pipe and bottle a la brake bleed on a car and am now bleeding with the fan pump etc in action (probably how it should be done anyway, was concerned about large jets of oil spewing into the boiler casing before I found the plastic pipe) If the pump is specced to 120psi for this model then I would expect it to be charging out. Instead its filled about a litre in about 10 or more burner start attempts, ie about 15 secs before lockout occurs. What should I be expecting? I wondered whether i had failed to engage the fan splines fitting with the pump but I would assume that I 'd see no pumping effects at all if not correct . I re-checked the electrode gap to see if I'd knoocked it but seems the same as before, bit less than spec at 3mm vs 4mm in commisoning leaflket that came with boiler. Only other thought is the new jet appeared to have a shinybrass colour fine guaze around its base. Until I saw it was guaze I thought it was a cover as the old (20yrs remember) looked different, It has a smaller filter but I'm just clutchingat anything at ther moment . I always feel in these corcumstances that it willbe something simple that as a first time I'm overlooking. So a request for any final comments before I call up the repair man!! :-)

Reply to
martin_sv

The pump is a gear pump which is fairly limited in its delivery volume/time ability. I wouldn't expect a lot different volume from what you describe. The pressure will be low until there is some resistance to the flow. Bear in mind the pressure is at a flow of around 0.6 USGPH not a litre in fifteen seconds.

Danfoss Nozzles have an integral sintered bronze strainer which should not be disturbed .

If the pump is purged and spinning then the nozzle3 should produce a fine atomised spray, if the drive is not present then either the drive couplings and shaft are not engaging and transmitting motion to the pumpshaft or the pump internal drive pin is not present and intact. You may still have a problem with the photocell as a short circuit cell can lead the control to think there is a flame before there should be. This leads to no power being applied to the solenoid and the unit goes to false light lockout. Check this by open circuiting the photocell when the burner should ignite but go to lockout AFTER a flame is established.

Reply to
John

Thanks John, What method should I use to view the nozzle spray? Taking the back plate off behind the nozzle its just to dark to see anything even with a light shining down there, also the HT leaqds mask the view. Is it safe to do it with the burner assembly out of the boiler? The thought of it potentially igniting and a 2 foot flame bursting into the kithchen is scary! Can you disable the current to the electrodes?

Reply to
martin_sv

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember martin snipped-for-privacy@tiscali.co.uk saying something like:

Much safer to build a burner stand and do it outdoors. Arrange a small fuel supply and run a power lead.

If you want to disable the ignition, trace back the feed wires from the ignition transformer and disconnect them from the control box - I'm assuming you have the type with discrete control box, ign tx.

Reply to
Grimly Curmudgeon

I agree its better to try these sort of things out of doors but unfortunately the daylight will cause the unit to go to false light lockout (you could do it after dark). I have in the past left the burner in situ and removed the combustion chamber access plate and baffles which allows you to see what is going on. Note that you should have one hand on the power so you can kill the unit instantly also that unless you have a conventional flue unit there is no flue draw to remove the flue gases. Very much a do as I say not as I do situation! Hence not to be advised to others.

Reply to
John

Wouldn't it be safer if you attached an ohm meter to the photocell?

Reply to
sky

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember "sky" saying something like:

Where's the fun in that?

Reply to
Grimly Curmudgeon

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