Traditional bannisters

[GMM]

The stairs to the top floor of my house are surrounded by a bannister and I would like to remove the handrail (about 6' long, between two newels) temporarily to make it easier to get some long timbers up there.

There is nothing visible externally to indicate how it is joined. I suspect this is effectively a blind mortice and tenon, perhaps with fox wedges (but that's only a guess). There don't seem to be any bolts or screws involved, as would be the case with the kits now available, as far as I can tell. Whatever the joint, it's bound to be 'traditional' as it has probably been there for the thick end of 150 years.

Any tips for how to dismantle this non-destructively? If necessary, I could saw through the handrail close up against the newel at each end, then find some way to re-assemble, with a thin shim to make up for the kerf of the cut, but is there likely to be a better way?

Clearly, I would try to find the thinnest saw I can, even though an angle grinder would undoubtedly be more entertaining...

I'm assuming that the spindles will come out of the underside of the handrail easily, although they are pretty rigid, but that's probably a separate issue.

Cheers chaps.

[Capitol]

Cut the top off one of the newels and have a look?

[GMM]

I must be misunderstanding this. It seems I would have to cut it at the level of the joint, which means I would then be cutting two things instead of one, to see what's there, and then I'd have the problem of re-fixing the newel, as well as the cut handrail.

What I was really hoping was that someone might know how these are/were fixed before the current bolted fittings were introduced, so I have some idea of what I might be working with (or against).

[John Rumm]

Normally I would expect the rail has tenoned on the end, and would have been inserted prior to the second newel being fixed. Less likely to be foxed IME, but quite commonly pegged through the side and the peg planed flat with the face of the newel.

Unless there is movement in the newel (or it can be unfastened slightly) you may have to cut one of the tenons.

To repair invisibly, you use a metal L bracket on the underside of the rail. If you route a rebate for it into the rail, and a deeper mortice into the newel, the top section will be hidden under the spindles packers/spacers, and you can cut a cover strip to glue into the rebate on the newel over the top of the bracket once fixed.

A Japanese style pull saw is a very fine kerf blade without much set on the (usually fleam cut or needle point) teeth.

The normal arrangement is the underside of the handrail has a dado the full length of it, the same width as the base of the spindles, and approx 1/4" deep. The spindles may be tacked in place with toe nails, but the bulk of the fixing is usually done with packer pieces the same width and depth as the dado, cut with bevelled ends, that space out the spindles and effectively lock them in position. Needless to say, once you can lift one end of the rail, the spindles should pull free easily.

[sm_jamieson]

It won't be so easy for future DIYers. Most spindles fitted these days are glued ! Simon.

[stuart noble]

+1 to all that. I suppose one arm of the brackets could be fixed to the bit of the post where the handrail had been cut, the horizontal arm being hidden under the rail. Not ideal screwing into end grain but maybe longer screws would reach something more meaty

[sm_jamieson]

The other method is to use the type of handrail fitting kit that is a bolt and a nut-on-a-plate that is fixed with screws into the end grain. These ca n be fitted with the bolt going through a hole in the newel (which then nee ds capping) and the nut on the end of the handrail, or the other way round with an access hole in bottom of the handrail to tighten the bolt. Simon.

[GMM]

Many thanks John - knowledgable as ever! I can't see any sign of the pegs (the whole thing is painted over), but it sounds like a a distinct possibility. I suspect I'll have to cut it at each end as it's a straight run and the newels are both nice and solid, which I wouldn't want to compromise with too much tugging and twisting. Even if I could drill out any pegs, I should think there will be some well set glue in those joints.

Actually, your answer solves two questions, the second being 'How am I ever going to justify buying a Japanese saw?". Always good to have a valid excuse to get a new toy. Now I just have to find the right one and look away from the price when I order it! Some of the kerf values quoted for them are really amazing: I'm sure I can lose a mm overall in reassembly. It wouldn't be a tragedy if I had to replace it, as handrails aren't too expensive, but I'd rather avoid it.

[GMM]

Good point Simon. I'll have to take a look at some of those alternative fittings before I cut this to see if there's a 'best' way to reassemble. There will, of course, be the conflicting demands of a good rigid result against (ideally) the possibility, if I can contrive it, of being able to get it all apart again, should the need arise. I had been thinking that something involving accessible bolts might be a good plan.

[John Rumm]

Its not universal - but I have seen it done on some older stairs...(I did not do it on the ones I built since I wanted them to be dismountable! I pegged the tenon with a screw so it could be withdrawn)

They are not always glued, so you might be lucky - I would cut one end and lift, then see if it will pull out of the other.

If you go for something like:

they are not that bad price wise... same as a couple of hard point jack saws perhaps.

[sm_jamieson]

olt and a nut-on-a-plate that is fixed with screws into the end grain. Thes e can be fitted with the bolt going through a hole in the newel (which then needs capping) and the nut on the end of the handrail, or the other way r ound with an access hole in bottom of the handrail to tighten the bolt.

I've done my stairs so the spindles and handrail can be removed from the to p and bottom newels as one piece. The bottom newel has a bolt though the ha ndrail, assisted by the angle, and hidden by a loosely fixed cover strip. The top newel has a bolt through it which will need to be capped. I had a s pindle base rail made up that has a groove on top for the spindles and a gr oove on the bottom for the stringer which is wedged/shimmed in place rather than glued. Everything else is glued. So with some disturbance of paint an d accessing the bolts, the handrail and spindles can be removed as a panel. I've no idea how heavy the thing is - but probably need to get the lads ro und. With the bannisters in place it is impossible to get the 3-seater sofa out of the front room !

The other idea I had was the type of chrome and timber bannisters where the fixing are exposed, but it wouldn't suit our house.

Simon.